$1/$2NL

V is relatively new to the table. So far he has button straddled to $4 and popped to $25 preflop when it limped to him. Got 1 call and took it down with a big c-bet. Has been involved in a few pots in his first orbit, nothing went to showdown. Early 30's white guy. I've seen him in the room once or twice, but no reads that I remember. $180

Hero has been kind of tight. V likely doesn't know much though. Another early 30's white guy. Covers.

3 limps preflop, V completes in the SB, and hero adds $15 on top of his BB with JJ. 3 callers, including V in the small blind.

Flop($64)47Q

V checks, hero bets $35. First two callers fold. V quickly and quietly slides out all his chips for $165 total.

Who hero calls this? I realize it's a math problem, once we put V on a range.

My thoughts:

I haven't run the stove analysis, but my guess is that when you put in a range of monsters and big draws, I should fold. However a set may want more action, and thus wouldn't shove this aggressively. TPGK may be intent to just check/call it down. So maybe this overbet is more likely to be a draw then a made hand? Any thoughts or experiences with these moves?

little too much leveling vs practically unknown.
fold and move on imo

Check flop flop against 3+ people. Fold as played

I'm probably checking flop as well with so many people in the hand. Might be nitty but I actually like a check here PF if I have a good read of the table and am sure we will get multiple callers with KT and QT

I'm pretty much never checking this pre flop.
Maybe .5% of the time.

Flop check is pretty standard, but I can get behind a bet if we had reads on players and who light they like to call down.

As played, run some stove ranges.
And then fold.

^^^Terrible advice.

Back to the hand:

I agree that V's hand looks like a flush draw. But we really don't have enough information to know if he plays his draws this aggressively or not. I probably fold and move on.

FWIW.... If V was wearing a hat, sunglasses, and beats by dre, then I might level myself into a call

dont be that guy. oop and 4 players with one unknown jamming with an overcard nah

Sometimes, a set (or any made hand) is afraid of draws and just wants to take down the pot.

If you make it 15 on top of 2 after four limpers and three of them call, shouldn't the pot be 70, not 64? If you bet 35, a pot-sized raise is to 175, and his shove is slightly smaller than that, so I wouldn't call it an overbet, even if the typical player who check-raises with a set probably makes it 70-80 at these stakes.

I wish you had the Jc to show him as you fold.

Not so sure I even feel inclined to call with AQ here .. maybe with AcQx.

We are either flipping or crushed .. $150ish into $300ish ... never crushing his hand.

Would be an interesting to stove a little bit with AQ ... folding JJ for sure. GL

I took out the $6 rake.

Lots of OPs take the rake out for 'us' .. $70-6=64 ... rake plus bbeat

Even my numbers are wrong ... its $128 into $262 ... basically the same math but for some reason seems more 'doable' at 60bb v 75bb.

I still stand by my crushed or flipping statement ... not for me in most cases. GL

Checking flop is clearly better 4-way OOP to two players and an unknown aggro checking into you. This is no time to vbet thing. Let the action and turn run out safe, then start treating your split pair like the big dick in town.

As played, just about the only read we have on villain is that he bets big, so I don't think we should go discounting a bunch of value combos because he's doing the thing he's been doing the whole time again. And we're not at risk of being leveled here either, unless his logic is, "Since I've already bet big a few times, they'll respect my big bets now."

But let's not be silly: if we have AQ, we're snapping him off so hard, we'll break our mouse (I guess that doesn' apply to live poker). AQ is not only ahead of several of his value hands, it also has MUCH better equity against hands that beat us.

BTW, I'd imagine AK has at least as good of equity here as JJ.

Snap call.

His range is more draw then monster. He pretty much never plays QQ like this. You have to discount 44, 77 and Qx since he's more likely to be trappy with these.

I'm going with the minority opinions here.

Never checking this pre, and multiway I'm also not for checking the flop.

3 other players, I would expect some Krag and Arag and funky suited cards mixed in with some baby PPs, in a vacuum, to make up most of their l/c range pre.

Flop I'm betting this. Players like this are only continuing with FD, TP hands. Sets are going to raise.

Vs raise isn't that big, relative to the pot. At 1/2 often people just think it's >50, whoa big bet. But given his stack size, if he's raising that's the only amount he should be raising.

I'm finding a fold here. Given PF reads, and flop action I think we can narrow is range to Qx, baby set. If we had more info Anne thought he's capable of bluffshoving, I'd include FD/SD.

Time for a sigh/nh/fold.

I think the typical player is more likely to be passive with a draw than trappy with a set here.

Do you even play LLSNL?

Every session I laugh at the morons who win the minimum...

I play LLSNL. I laugh at the morons who win the minimum because they overbet with made hands when they are afraid of draws.

So you're saying this guy is a nit? OMC? Hmmm... doesn't fit the evidence.

So we're turning our hand into a bluff? If we just wait one more betting round, we can bet for fairly fat value. Save your bluffs for when you don't have any other way of winning the hand unimproved.

If he is a loose-passive player, he's more likely to have a set than a draw. That might not be true if he is loose-aggressive. It might be that you should fold against a random player if the player base in that room has more LPs than LAGs and not fold if that situation is reversed. If limping preflop seems to be the norm, maybe the former is more likely to be accurate.

Since when is a standard cbet turning your hand into a bluff? Please explain this to me.

And what is so holy about delaying 1 round for our cbet and giving everyone a free card to improve? We only have 1 clean out to improve.

Cbet usually is a bluff, by definition...

A cBet by definition isnt a bluff or a value bet. It can be either.

It depends on our hand, board texture and the range of hands we expect to call or fold when we bet.

In this case I would often expect worse to fold, so that makes it a bluff.

Huh?