Too many conflicting factors going on here for there to be any resolution to this at all. Admittedly, i dont play 1/2. I couldnt help but think that 1/2 players just like the worse 2/5 players just ship a decent draw when posed with a big bet. They DO donk terribly often in vegas and La. I dont know about East Coast.

I guess the best ending answer is to know the best solution depending on which factors you believe to exist. (i.e. donking or no donking, shipping draws or no shipping draws etc)/.

Its impossible to get a correct answer in math when you cannot agree on the formula.

bet less, if we are going with typical 1/2 player then we dont need to bet 2/3 or 3/4 PSB. we could 40 here easily, still get called by all hands, but we can find a fold to a c/r which will happen with any K, unless Vil is good or super bad and plys hands like K2 K3. Then we ship on blank turn.

ANL ur usually spot on with all ur advice, but b/c here has to be bad.

I'm still not convinced that the two limpers donk a king. You'll have a hard time convincing me too because through all my hours of live play it's just not what I've seen. Besides, bar far the most likely person to have a king in their is not the two limpers, but the tight player yet to act behind us.

what can i say. First, the button guy is all im worried about and thats only 1 man. So im not worried that much. The first two guys will have far more
SC and medium pairs in their range than anything else.

Now, if i bet big, and they have nothing, i win the pot. And i will a reasonable amt of time because i reduce ALL floating with Tx and other gutty ******** etc. about to zero.

Now, when villain have NFD, 8+FD, FD+gutshot, etc, when i bet big, i find they just say hell with it and stick it on in if it isnt but another 100 or so. I cannot believe you guys dont see that either because it is totally common at bellagio and Venetian etc. They just dont call 80, then wait til turn and call another 100. They stick it in with the draw.

So my math here says i win the 80 quite often, and get it in and fade draws mostly when shoved on. Why? Because i doubt we look at KKK and TTT here hardly ever.

But check this flop, and with 3 villains catching cards we wont win the 80 almost ever. If i were first here, no problem, i check fold. But after two players check, no sir, im after this pot now.

fair 'nuf, you're that it'll be tough to argue whether people donk here or not. it'll depend on the tendencies in the games we all play. i do think, though, that at 2/5, shoving with draws or combo draws is one of the things that will definitely happen more than at 1/2. 1/2 is overwhelmingly loose passive in my experience.

I just check/fold. We're in a multi-way pot so people are going to play more honestly. There's an overcard plus a flush draw. Our hand sucks.

ETA: And what I mean by "honestly" is that I doubt someone is going to take a bluff at this pot vs 3 players, although obviously a good draw might (but even good draws might play this passively). We have a very mediocre hand and if everyone wants to check it down to showdown then I'm fine with that. And if we put in just one bet we're getting pretty close to being committed (a 1/2 pot bet with one caller will make the pot $160, and we'll only have $120 left, pretty difficult position if blanks come in on the turn/river).

GcluelessNLnoobG

I think the conflicts about opinions of what to do in this hand are based upon the fact that our given read is not very specific, and we have players commenting that play in games of varying degrees of aggression.

I think that the more passive our villains play, the more we don't call a shove here.

In my local 2/3 game, most randoms are very loose/passive and will not be shipping draws here. I would not usually bet/call my stack to a random without a very good read.

From what I have heard and have scoped out from my local 3/5 game (want to move up soon), you could expect a CRAI in that game to be heavily weighted to draws. Everyone in that game wants to outplay others and push their draws hard regardless of fold equity.

If he plays in a game similar to my local 3/5, I think this is why we see ANL recommending a bet/call.

Decide which game you play in and play accordingly.

Yea, WE have all agreed pretty much this tendency will make a difference. 1/2 players maybe dont shove like that. OK, if they dont, then its simple. Bet/FOLD. But bet!! We have the best hand most of the time here. Dont just
hand the pot away when you dont have to.

i'm not sure if bet/fold works so well when we have such low SPR. what do you think?

SPRs are for when you dont know the range exactly you are against.

If everyone is so staunch that villain has strong value hands if they shove, then bet/fold. Bet to take the pot, and fold if a shove means we are crushed 100% the time. Its pretty clear.

Im not really convinced of that, but everyone else seems to be.

This was a good thread.

Was the straddle really 3x? If so, we are starting the hand 30 bb effective...

Pre- 20 is ok, but 26 is better because you really just want to isolate the limper.

Flop- As played, bet like 46/call it off usually/fold when you have a strong read or believe whoever ships is incapable of doing so with worse or a draw.

It's 30 bbs ffs

Jeeeesus DG, thank god you came by. In case you guys dont know who this is, he is certainly one of the men of all men in HSNL as well as Deep NL. Christ almighty thanks man.

i think this only reinforces that 1/2 is very different from higher games. if he is a HSNL player.

i thought about this some more. i agree there are lots of players that would check/shove a strong draw here with these stacks. but i also think there are lots that would not, who's check/shoving ranges would be mostly K-containing hands.

i'm not sure where the balance b/w them lies necessarily, even in the games i actually play in. it would be reads dependent on the villain. absent any reads i still fold to a shove (if for whatever reason i chose to follow ANL's advice and lead out OTF).

Well, as he said. If you KNOW the villain wont shove without a nut hand, then fold. But betting there is no question about i hope everyone sees.