MODs, please move this if you feel it does not belong here.

I retired and moved to Vegas 10 months ago. I have no wish to play poker for a living, I just enjoy it. I play approx. 30 to 40 hours per week at the 1/2 tables. I do show a small profit, I wished I could spout off some huge numbers I see some guys say about their winnings, but in truth, I am making around one big blind per hour.

If you sat with me, you would probably consider me an OMC/weak tight player.

Here is my issue. When a very good LAG sits down at the table and I know he is better than me, I usually just get up and leave and find a better table. After all, this is Vegas and there are plenty of tables.


However, call it macho bull****, but, I hate running, I would rather stay and believe I can play against this type of player.

I am not talking the usual LAGgys that raise every hand but have no clue how to play after the flop. I am talking about guys that do raise every preflop, show aggression, but know how to let it go if they think they are beat.

Honestly, there are not that many of these guys at the 1/2 level, so it is not a major deal. But, my questions is this, should I just continue to stay out of these guys ways or should I play?

If I stay, how would you play against a better player? LOL! Please don;t tell an OMC to tighten up on his starting hand!

All advice from the better players here is appreciated.

I recently touched upon this topic in a discussion in the winrate thread,and would say i have decent experience when it comes to handle and overcoming aggro LAGs.

Its easier for us though if you can give us some ingame scenarios or rough hand examples, to illustrate how you find it hard to play against them, or in wich kind of spots/dynamic youre getting trouble.

Do you feel you get bluffed alot? Are you having trouble putting them on accurate stackoffranges? Are you having trouble figuring out their 3 bet ranges pre? We need some more flesh on the bone before we can give any really meaningful stuff in return to you.

I posted a similar thread about a year back. I was (and still mainly am) a mainly nitty ABC type that was slightly winning (btw not atypical for this style)

Two things I did:

1) I read a lot of the material out here on this
2) I just forced myself to sit when one of these come on, and peg my losses as the cost of learning. If you're reasonably financially secure, the best way to learn is to start to do some of the things, know you'll make mistakes, and it might be a couple of grand of negative EV, but that's the lesson price.

Why do you play?

If it's for pure fun, and you're not having fun at the table when the LAG sits down, then obviously change tables to a table you'll have fun at.

Otherwise, if I was shortstacked, I'd typically sit on the LAGs right and limp/reraise with my big hands. In my 1/3 NL game this is pretty profitable due to the big preflop raise sizing and the multiway action (so taking down dead money is hugely profitable), although I'll admit I'm not sure if Vegas games play the same. And yes, I actually think the best way to beat a LAG is to tighten up; let him steal all the tiny pots he wants and get raped by the rake, and meanwhile we'll simply sit back and wait for the big hands which we can safely take to war with him (at least shorstacked, you may have to consider switching tables once things become deepstacked).

Gimo;goodluck,andcongratsonthewinningrecordsofarG

Hard to answer this question in a vacuum, but one mistake I see people make against LAGGY players is that they try to end hands early because they're afraid of being put to hard decisions on later streets.

Example - LAG raises in late position and you call on the BTN with QJhh. Flop is Q84ssd and LAG c-bets. A lot of times you'll see people raise the LAG here, which is a huge mistake. You allow him to get away from his air and worse made hands, which he maybe would continue to barrel with if you'd just call.

+1. Classic flawed logic when you face a LAG.

1. Sit down and truly visualize your preflop ranges for each position. First draw out your open raise range for each and every seat if the action is folded to you preflop or is on you in the case of UTG. Then your cold call ranges for each position to someone else's open, which should be different depending on where any villain opened from (cold calling when you are BTN vs CO will not look the same as cold calling BTN vs UTG). Then finally your 3-bet range against each position for every different position (example 3-bet hands when you are BTN vs. CO will not be the same hands as 3-betting BTN vs UTG). You must do that work for each and every damn position. IF, you do this correctly you should be 3-betting more out of position and cold calling more in position.

2. Stick to what you draw up preflop. There are no ifs, maybes, I think this guy is tight, that guy is a good LAG, he sucks, she has tits, I like his beard. NONE OF THAT MATTERS. Play the range in an absolute manner preflop. Force yourself.

3. both in and out of position. Bet your strong hands for value (sets, top pair on dry board, nut flush draw, combo draws). Check (or check call) your middling hands (middle pairs, weak flushes, TPwK). In this part it is common to call the flop and fold to a turn bet, where you should try to make it to the river if your hand still holds showdown value. Calling two streets with second pair when the board cooperates and the ranges tell a different story is not a crime. You will start seeing showdown more often and be right more often than you realize. Finally, Bet as bluffs your worst mediocre value hands (gutshots, weak flush, 3rd pairs types). Fold the garbage. This should work out to be something like continuing 57% of the time in hands and folding 43% of the time.

I know thats a ton of homework but this is what poker is now. And it shall be here to stay like it or not.

Check/call and river donk OOP, raise IP are your friends. This is mostly for post flop aggression. Preflop you can just keep playing abc.

^The old way of poker. Wants to keep you a loser.

I don't want anyone to be a loser.

Lol, you're telling him to play ranges in an absolute manner. You can definitely widen your range a little bit against a lag, especially as an OMC/weak tight as OP describes himself.

If you're not positionally aware OP, start getting into the habit.That helps, but you can definitely exploit lags by generally playing more passive vs. them even if you're widening your range a little bit. Most people think oh I'm just gonna kill this guy when I get aces or kings, but then never get paid off. Loosen up your range a bit. When you're in the pot HU with a LAG you're going to have the best of it most of the time even if they are pounding you with aggression.

The thing is LAGs can change up their playstyle too. So if you see someone who gets involved in a lot of pots and is very aggressive pre flop but let's off the gas post flop you can start value betting your marginal hands more.

A mixture of passive and aggressive lines postflop should keep you out of trouble, while still playing pretty tight pre. Try checking back some top pairs on dry boards (or wet ones with blockers) and barreling some weak draws. If he is the type of player who can tell when people are making a stand and goes light on the triple-barrels you can double-float in position with fairly marginal holdings. He should also slow down if he realizes there are good hands in your checking range, allowing you to get free cards with strong draws. Best advice is to just watch him like a hawk for frequency exploits and go from there. Biggest LAG weakness is that they play a lot of hands and give you a lot of data. Other than that, if he isn't that great just get him to start the betting machine and call him down.

Dealing with players like this can delve into making assumptions about their assumptions about you, and sometimes making assumptions about what their assumptions about your assumptions of them are. Honestly I would recommend a slight winning player get better at crushing in general, than beating this one player and avoid him, probably by adding some all-around aggression to your game. It's not worth the hassle at 1/2.

If you say you are retire and you aren't trying to replace it as a living but you invest 20-30 hours a week, come to my table because your money is the money I want . In fact I'll even have a full conversation with you and maybe I'll be entertaining enough while I try to take your money . 20-30 hours a week is a job if it's not what is it .

It's for fun?

Real poker isn't fun it takes a toll on your soul on making it. I mean if you want you can just wait for KK+ and just go all in preflop , and try to cash money that way but you'll never get better. I'm not there to have fun or make money , I am there to play good poker and minimize mistakes / losses

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I think many of the respondants so far have confused "LAGgy good player" with "LAG."

Check-calling multiple streets hoping a good player is going to barrel off against someone who may be accused of being an OMC is not going to work.

I'll give an example of someone who may be reading this, and me as the LAG . Villain noticed me being fairly active in late position - I raise CO wide and BTN very wide, and I 3-bet from those positions way more than anyone else (often more than the rest of the table combined). I open the CO to 4bb, he coldcalls OTB with Q5o. He has the right idea - as my range widens, so should his; but Q5o is just so awful that even if I raised 100% it's a mistake (I raise 25-30%). HU, flop is Q77tt (he has the BFD with the 5 if that matters). I bet about 2/3 pot, he calls. Again, he got one thing right - I'm cbetting a very high percentage here so he should call a very high percentage - but somehow this morphs into him expecting that I'm going to barrel off a 100% range and that top pair is low enough in his range to bluffcatch. Turn 9r, I check, and he checks behind, which is completely absurd - giving all my KT/KJ/JT hands free gutshot draws. River Jr, I make a 1/4 pot bet and he ... calls. On the face this doesn't appear absurd - he correctly believes I'm neither calling worse nor folding better if he raises - but only when I barrel a HUGE percentage does that work out for him, if I'm bluffing, top pair doesn't beat anything that A2 doesn't beat, so he's just condemned himself to calling a ridiculous percetange of his range.

He was also good enough to give me a tell which confirmed all this thinking - he tossed in a single chip at the end, thinking he was good for sure.

And he was, of course - anything that beat him would have probably stacked him (I'm snap value betting QJ+ 3x for this exact reason). Basically he wins about 1/4 of his stack when I barrel off, and loses it all when I barrel.

If he wants to be the kind of person that gives me headaches, he needs to:

1. Show that he can play back preflop appropriately wide. If he 3-bets more than 20% there or less than 8%, I'm just raising with impunity.

2. Make thin value bets and raises on the flop. If I get to bet/fold because his raising range is crushing, then I have a really easy decision with weak made hands (like 88-JJ in this example).

3. Show up at showdown like he had a plan, something where even if I won, I'd think to myself, wow, that would not have worked out for 80% of my range, I won the pot but he pwned me.

Fight fire with fire. Takes a lot of work, a lot of hours. I sit on their left and have position on them. That's one. Then I loosen up my calling range and my 3-bet range. I start to play aggressively my draws when they barrel. Worked very well for me. Oh, one thing... If you sit and wait for AA/KK, you won't get paid by lag. If it's a good lag.

willperkins, congrats on retirement.

TBH as a recreational player, just move from the table if you feels someone is just going to outplay you. As you said, there are such few players around it hardly is worth the effort to take them on.

Callipygian gave solid advice if you want to start playing against these players.

Vs this type of player, do you think your errors come from calling too much or folding too much? Given your self-description, I'll assume that you fold too much vs a decent LAG. Do you think you make errors pre, otf, or on later streets? You prob have a fair understanding of pre and flop decisions, so it might be later in the hand, when bets get bigger and decisions tougher.

On the river you're sitting with 3rd pair, there's $120 in the middle, and he makes a bet of 90. You only need to be right about 30% of the time to make this call. That means you can be wrong much more than half the time and still be making the correct decision. Intellectually we all get that, but sometimes it's hard for tighter players to emotionally accept this. The difference between a rando LAG and a good LAG is they know who is more likely to fold to that pressure.

Lol sorry i was being a bit harsh in the moment, Kinda feel like a jerk now. Sorry... Okay yes absolute fashion is taking it to the extreme, but that is the true basis of this game now. Taking explotative lines when the situation dictates is VERY crucial in live games don't get me wrong. But playing the ranges solid 85% of the time first is what's important to loosen up correctly and understand the true value of showdown against LAGs even when they put you to the fire. Making the tight fold against the nit, or jam against the guy on tilt to stack, etc. Those plays are situation dependent and will come. Playing the solid range and being ready for the LAGs before you ever are dealth the cards is hero's problem IMO.

Some people find a moderate challenge "fun".

cAjustsayin'Am


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Exploit your image. I'm guessing you're the type of player to 3bet only KK or aces right? Start 3-betting the LAG light if you have an OMC image. Think to yourself, "how would I play aces or kings in this situation" and then play your hand like that after your image is established of if you're certain a players pegs you as that. If the LAG is raising too many hands, you can probably 3bet him with junk profitably and take the hand down preflop a few times and then just pull your gas off the pedal after 2 or 3 times. He won't suspect you're not doing this with real hands if these hands aren't shown down.

Pretty sure op could Raise turn with ATC once every 1.5 hrs and print $$.

cAjustsayin'Am


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Check raise the turn. Works every time.

Edit: Dang just realized commando basically beat me to this same advice.

OP, the villain you described is pretty much me...or more aptly forum member wheydacheese who plays in the very games that you do. The sad truth of the matter is that going to war against this type of villain will leave you crippled. I pretty much agree with these previous posts. What you really want to do is to win some of this villain's scraps. ie if he raises and gets called in a bunch of spots then you can raise with any 2 cards and steal a good sized pot preflop. This will generally work as long as you have a very tight image and are very selective in choosing the spots to bluff. You should be bluffing very infrequently but still this will be enough to increase your winrate.

You don't really want to play postflop vs this villain much but when you do don't overplay your one pair type hands.