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Old 02-20-2012, 11:29 PM   #51
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

Does anyone agree you don't really have to open your range much except in BTN and CO? No one seems to notice that i'm only wild in posistion and not everywhere else.
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Old 02-20-2012, 11:44 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by alew22 View Post

Most of the good posters on here who actually know what they're doing advocate playing a much more straight-forward valuebet type of game at llsnl...............and then a post like this comes out?

Its amazing how a forum on poker can even be constructed and stabilized. There's so many different opinions on each minuscule aspect of the game that a forum like this almost has no integrity. Nobody knows who to listen to.

Ive played lag poker as you describe before. I used to think it was the way to be a winning player. I did okay. i was probably profitbale....just not that much. Then, i dabbled in stud for a little while, and it unintentionally tightened up my pre-flop starting hands for hold 'em. I let the change take its natural course, and i realized that being an overly-reckless wannabe tom dwan is terrible. Im not saying i dont ever bluff, or dont open 89s from MP. Its just, in general, many many many llsnl players make a ridiculous amount of mistakes....ALL the time. pre, post, river....whenever. A much more patient and "valuebet" type game will be a little more boring, but it will yield huge profits with much smaller varaince (in consideration).

Im just throwing out my .02 man.....to each his own. GL.
People beat the game here. But you can't crush with a straight forward value betting range. You won't ever have stacks of 500bbs+.

Crush and beating to different dilemma's.
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Old 02-20-2012, 11:47 PM   #53
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

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Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
3. The Station. Conventional advice is to never bluff the station. WRONG. Bluff the station for small amounts and show win or lose. Most stations think twice when the bets get big, but if you plant the crazy image in their head they will call off huge bets.
Love it. I show damn near every bluff, and never when I have a good hand.

Good thread. What I took from it, was to develop a wild image, and loosen up IP vs. deepstacked donks.

As for the 84s thing, it's really villain dependent, but think about the guys who only raise like JJ+/AK. Against these guys, I have no problem calling IP because they will almost never fold these hands. Many fish can only fold AA when the board runs out ultra scary like 4 to a straight or flush. When they have a very strong range you have the implied odds to call. You are basically setmining with a junk hand.
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Old 02-20-2012, 11:55 PM   #54
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

I dont think we need 500bb stacks on a regular basis, though, to "crush" the games. I will take a consistent $150 for a day's work. And, I seem to see that happen for some 4/5 days a week. These are the TAGnits just clicking along and doing their thing unnoticed. I generally see a 500bb stack give back sizable portions and ride the roller coaster before it's all done. Not that he doesn't crush the games, he just rides the variance train a lot harder, too. As has been said a gillion times, to each his own.

Quote:
It's like the NFL on 4th down. The idiot commentators are always saying YOU CANT RISK GOING FOR IT on 4th and short from the other team's 40. But when you're on defense, you're praying the other team's idiot coach punts.
OP, you had me until about here. Everything else you've said before and after, I understand the thoughts behind the concept. However, playing like it's 4th and short....and you're going to gamble to throw the other player off....is reckless to say the least. It didn't work for Mike Martz, and it's not likely a long term winner for anyone else. The Don Shulas, hell the Bill Bellicheks, punt more often than not. It's why they stick around until the other guy goofs. They don't force it often.

Playing 84s, or any other uberspeculative hand, is fine provided you are deep enough and so is villain. I would take the same shots. But, if a list of conditions aren't met first, it's reckless with such a weak hand that doesn't flop well often. Stack sizes matter huge, and that wasn't eluded to in the OP from my interpretation.
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Old 02-20-2012, 11:58 PM   #55
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

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Love it. I show damn near every bluff, and never when I have a good hand.
I would advise this strategy to get started. Play TAG learn the game and get comfy while you show almost every single bluff. Crushing live low stakes IMO consists of constantly playing for value.

If you can get started and play ABC and start to throw in semi-bluffs and random bluffs and show them when table folds....chances are your opponents will not interpret what to do with that additional info properly...ie they won't adjust properly.

As the great Cole "CTS" South used to say....pokers not that tough, you just need to stay one level ahead or your competition....not 2 levles or 3....JUST ONE!!!

gl at the tables
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:00 AM   #56
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

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Thank you for a dose of sanity in this thread.
Are you being sarcastic?
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:02 AM   #57
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

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Originally Posted by PokahBlows View Post
People beat the game here. But you can't crush with a straight forward value betting range. You won't ever have stacks of 500bbs+.

Crush and beating to different dilemma's.

This is meaningless. When has what happened in a single particular session ever meant something?
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:07 AM   #58
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

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Originally Posted by EpicWon View Post
Play TAG learn the game and get comfy while you show almost every single bluff.

If you can get started and play ABC and start to throw in semi-bluffs and random bluffs and show them when table folds....chances are your opponents will not interpret what to do with that additional info properly...ie they won't adjust properly.
I prefer to reveal as little information as possible. While it's feasible to steer someone in the wrong direction by showing them air now and again, I find it a little presumptuous to assume that you'll find a lot of players who misinterpret what you're trying to do. Maybe you will, maybe you won't. I would much rather keep everyone in the dark by never showing them anything. This keeps them guessing.

When I raise four limpers in a 1-2 game to 18 on the button, that looks enough like a steal that I don't need to confirm everyone's suspicions by showing them KQo. I can usually tell from the muttering that they are sufficiently unconvinced that I have a strong hand. To me, that's enough to get value.

As a competent, level-headed player, I consider it a win every single time someone shows a hand at the table without being required to do so. Therefore, I avoid giving anyone else that edge.
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:10 AM   #59
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

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My advice for most of you: as you play TAG, start looking for plays you can make if you were LAGgier. Don't make them yet - but pay attention to your opponents and try to sharpen your hand reading. Once you see that your hand reading vs. a specific villain is pretty sharp because you know his game well - then you can start considering opening your game way up IP to exploit him.
Again, I'm speaking from a position of limited experience, but this advice seems dead-on. I love the feeling, a couple of hours into a live session, of realizing that I know the table better than anyone else does, b/c I've been there longer (or as long) and I've been paying better attention.

This is the time to look for LAGgier plays. It doesn't mean I open my pf range up in a drastic way, and it doesn't necessarily mean that I _make_ every loose/aggressive play that I can think of; but it's where my game grows most. And my small change in attitude can change the table dynamic in my favor in important ways and open all kinds of possibilities for exploiting my opponents.
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:12 AM   #60
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This is meaningless. When has what happened in a single particular session ever meant something?
It means a lot bro, I beat the game. I play a value range and a value limp range. A good night for me is 1200-1500. cashout. I don't crush, like I said I play in LA at the comm/HG and see 600bb+ stacks everynight. Like at least 4/5 guys. Starting stack 200 second buyin you can buy for 300. At hg I see it too, 300$ dollar starting stacks.

I'm not a lag but hopefully one day my bankroll will allow it.
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:12 AM   #61
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

I hate to belabor the point about 84s, but since it's the hand that OP tossed out as an example, I don't mind running with it a little bit just to demonstrate the point that while I agree with the general principle of playing a lot of hands in position:

1) I prefer to have better cards to do it.
2) I prefer to have the betting initiative.

I just don't think it's worth it to try to pick on the nits by constantly putting bad money in the pot preflop in the hopes of flopping bottom two pair and getting it all in on the flop as a 3:1 favorite when the other person overplays an overpair.

That seems like a losing proposition in the long term.
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:59 AM   #62
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

Quote:
Originally Posted by chopper5654 View Post
...
OP, you had me until about here. ....
Well he starts out with this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
...

When you confuse opponents at this level, and they are very easy to confuse, they will make HUGE mistakes against you. This is how you start killing the game.

And sooner or later, and probably sooner, you're going to show down one of your awful hands and you will be labeled a maniac by the clowns who don't even know what position is let alone how to account for it.
....
Now, since these guys are awful, you want to play pots with them, especially if you are at all deep. The average low limit player is horrible at playing deep and makes no adjustments. So if a donk raises in early position

....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
Yeah you do have to be good post flop, which takes some experience...
You've got to play good post flop against the clowns, donks, horrible players and what have you. Except you can always tell when they have AA so maybe you don't have to play that good against players this easy to read and are willing to call you no matter what you bet because you play hands like 8-4s in position. Yeah that makes sense.
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Old 02-21-2012, 01:02 AM   #63
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

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I completely disagree. Just because we have a lot of chips doesn't mean we should be playing 65% of the hands all of a sudden.

Also, in the games I'm playing in, the odds of one player, let alone multiple players at the same table, having 700+ big blinds are not good.



How does calling a raise with 84s hoping to crush the flop constitute aggression?
these are exactly the kind of hands you want to play this deep
vs a stationy passive player. not vs an aggro player, who is capable of playing back, or putting you to the tuff decisions.

yes, it does mean you want to start playing @1/2 your hands esp in position.
read the Harrington cash books, he talks about the difference between games with differant stack sizes in detail, and how they should be played.

aggression doesnt have to mean raise raise raise. a fold can be an aggressive play if you open your mind.
riverman alluded to how LAG play isnt about bludgeoning villians in the least, although it may seem that way to others.
its about villian thinking "dammit, aggressive guy called me in position, i dont know what he has, he prolly knows close to what i have, and im prolly getting this taken away unless I hit."
aggression means brainwashing them that they are the deer in the headlights, and youre the headlights.
its about creating an image, and training your villians to react to you, not the other way around.
this is where you want them, and you accomplish this by playing aggressive after the flop; not so much before the flop.
you get them to make more mistakes, give you free cards, pay you off lighter,so many perks, all by establishing psychological dominance (limon refers to 'psychological ascendancy'); so this is aggression on a whole other plane than what youre thinking if you believe that aggression translates into mindlessly going bet bet bet. this may be because you dont understand what a LAGs strategy truly is, and what they are trying to accomplish with it??

>>>a LAG benifits by keeping the pot small early in the hand, and using his hand reading, and post flop skills to out-manuever villian, or to value town him when we hit with our trash.
PF raising, 3 betting, and 4 betting goes way down in value super-deep, (its in the Harrington books, and is pretty obv, because its more about post flop play, and seeing he hand.)
Big pairs go way down in value and actually become drawing hands super deep (who is putting in 500bb w KK without a set?).
trash hands go way up in value, keeping the pot smaller until you want to make it bigger( because youve seen more than your hole cards now), goes up in value.
its pretty simple really, and its nothing new that im saying.
i thought this was standard?

Last edited by stampler; 02-21-2012 at 01:15 AM.
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Old 02-21-2012, 01:06 AM   #64
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

My fellow mod, mpethybridge, once shared an analysis publicly of a well known micro on-line player to the forum with the that person's approval. He showed how this player was just crushing 50nl, doing virtually everything right as well as anybody playing the micros. The player had only one leak: he was playing too low.

The OP of this thread reminds me of that. Regulars will know that I preach the trinity of poker: cards, position and skill. If you have position and skill, the cards aren't necessary to win. If you have a significant post flop skill advantage over the competitors at your current level, it is time to move up, not try to hone it to squeeze a few extra BB at 1/2 or 2/5.
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Old 02-21-2012, 01:18 AM   #65
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

the problem is that when you tighten up this deep, and dont play the 84s,
they dont fear you as much, and you lose your mojo.
you begin to take on a range in their eyes thats not ATC, and thats bad.
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Old 02-21-2012, 01:22 AM   #66
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

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My fellow mod, mpethybridge, once shared an analysis publicly of a well known micro on-line player to the forum with the that person's approval. He showed how this player was just crushing 50nl, doing virtually everything right as well as anybody playing the micros. The player had only one leak: he was playing too low.

The OP of this thread reminds me of that. Regulars will know that I preach the trinity of poker: cards, position and skill. If you have position and skill, the cards aren't necessary to win. If you have a significant post flop skill advantage over the competitors at your current level, it is time to move up, not try to hone it to squeeze a few extra BB at 1/2 or 2/5.
i think you can essentially double a win rate playing good-aggro at 2/5, which is nothing to sneeze at.
the 2/5 games can be more profitable than the 5/10 games sometimes. (weaker fields)
i see pros moving down to 2/5 from higher because they know this;
guys that i wouldnt expect to see in the game.
theres pretty good money at 2/5, even though its LS,
unless you need to have a baller lifestyle?
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Old 02-21-2012, 01:24 AM   #67
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the problem is that when you tighten up this deep, and dont play the 84s,
they dont fear you as much, and you lose your mojo.
you begin to take on a range in their eyes thats not ATC, and thats bad.
This is gold and should go for playing period. I'm going to note this post and if I feel I'm playing to tight ill read this quote.
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Old 02-21-2012, 01:29 AM   #68
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

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This is gold and should go for playing period. I'm going to note this post and if I feel I'm playing to tight ill read this quote.
im talking about playing super super deep only, which rarely happens. (400 BB+)
dont apply this with 100 BB or you are toast.
tight is right w/ 100 BB.
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Old 02-21-2012, 01:46 AM   #69
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

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i think you can essentially double a win rate playing good-aggro at 2/5, which is nothing to sneeze at.
I disagree that good aggro can double profits from good TAG, but without data it is just my opinion. I would argue that a player that is moving down from 5/10 games because they aren't "good" is moving down because they aren't the best at 5/10 and are smart enough to recognize it.
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Old 02-21-2012, 01:52 AM   #70
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im talking about playing super super deep only, which rarely happens. (400 BB+)
dont apply this with 100 BB or you are toast.
tight is right w/ 100 BB.
I'm talking about the overall that if you play too tight people will start to put you on a range.

I play strict ranges but that's my problem. I don't bluff raise/call with trash. I have never played 84s or 62s in my life. I play poker by the book and take zero chances. My biggest leak I play too tight.

My percentages looks like this on a regular basis if I'm not deep.

Ep, 5%

Mp,6.6%

Lp, 10%

Limp range,

Ep, 7.2%

Mp 8.4%

Lp 22.2%
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Old 02-21-2012, 09:12 AM   #71
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

How deep is deep enough? How much should everyone have before I start to open things up and get semi loosey goosey? At the card room I play in stacks are almost always shallow 60-80bb's. On a good night 2-3/ out of 8 players will have 200bb+ and the rest will be shallow. I am SO SICK of playing abc tight at this place and i'm not getting paid off like I used to.
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:18 AM   #72
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

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I'm talking about the overall that if you play too tight people will start to put you on a range.

I play strict ranges but that's my problem. I don't bluff raise/call with trash. I have never played 84s or 62s in my life. I play poker by the book and take zero chances. My biggest leak I play too tight.

...
FWIW here's something to think about. What can swing a 3 gap suited connector from the unprofitable to the profitable? It's called fold equity. OPs post basically states that the horrible live ones at $1-2 call way too much after the flop and aren't aggressive enough. That to me doesn't pass the smell test in the justification in playing hands that need fold equity (on any street) to be profitable. I suppose OP would counter that it's a matter of timing that being a good at post flop play means that you can set up the horrible live ones who call way too much by getting them to actually fold more and then getting them to call just when you make a hand with your long shot preflop hand that you played in position. But then you did notice his comment about value betting relentlessly where presumably you're showing them good enough hands. So they call him when he's got a hand that beats them, he bluffs them profitably when he doesn't, he can basically play a lot of seemingly weak hands preflop because he can do all this. This is the prescription for crushing $1-2 donks. Ok, then good luck with that but its hardly a great piece of advice. I mean its no secret that if you can get the suckers to call you when you have them beat and get them to fold when you don't that you're going to crush the suckers.

Last edited by adios; 02-21-2012 at 10:29 AM.
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:23 AM   #73
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

I played 62s sometime this weekend. There were 2 limpers, someone raised to $20 ($2/5), 1 caller, I look down at 62 clubs in the SB and made it $105. Everyone folded.

Every session I play there are situations pre-flop where I think in my head "hmm this is a really good spot to squeeze, if I have any suited trash here I'll probably do it" before checking my cards. And if I look down and see J7o or whatever then I fold, but I love suited trash because if you flop a flush draw you can generally barrell all-in and still have decent equity when called, and the pot will be big enough to justify playing that way.
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:07 PM   #74
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

Lots of logical fallacies in the thread but a lot of truth as well

Conditional probability means most of this is bad advice in a beginners forum though
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:11 PM   #75
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

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Lots of logical fallacies in the thread but a lot of truth as well

Conditional probability means most of this is bad advice in a beginners forum though
Unless it helps show the path to enlightenment to the beginners.
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