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Old 02-18-2014, 06:23 PM   #401
RunNitOnce
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

Haven't been to the local card room in months. After reading this I can't start the car fast enough.
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Old 02-18-2014, 09:08 PM   #402
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

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Originally Posted by RunNitOnce View Post
Haven't been to the local card room in months. After reading this I can't start the car fast enough.
This site isn't big enough for the two of us...unless you change your avatar.
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Old 02-19-2014, 10:20 AM   #403
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

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This site isn't big enough for the two of us...unless you change your avatar.
Respect.
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Old 04-13-2014, 06:18 PM   #404
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

Excellent advice in this thread.
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Old 04-21-2014, 12:15 PM   #405
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Lightbulb Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

Bump because I SO OWE MY RENEWED POKER CONFIDENCE TO THIS THREAD!!!


Also I offer a couple of additional tips that have helped me in my local live rollercoaster of a 200nl game (50/100 minimum and 500 maximum wheee #EdmontonFTW* )


1. When everyone is opening for $15 or $20 or even $25 (welcome to Edmonton live 200nlgames!) with 4 or more callers this makes effective stacks shallow and SPRs tiny and thus the game ain't poker it's an insane LOTTERY.
So at first try making YOUR opens just $10 or even $5 ... and even vs limpers. (Don't expect to win post-flop, and only value-bet a monster otf or steal ott if checked around.) Sure you will get mocked loudly and maybe experience a few obviously-light oversized 3bets (to which you can fold your non-premiums and again enjoy the shock and laughter) and of course at first you will probably have a TON of "limp" calls ("Family Pot") ... but you will find that most of those ridic huge pfr sizes eventually start shrinking from others too! NOW we have SANE eff. Stacks/SPRs so you can enjoy doing what OP describes!


2. Talk. You are gonna be folding UTG thru Lowjack (Hijack-1) almost always, so distract from your cautious patience! Talk non-stop, about everything happening at the table and around it and on the TVs etc. But avoid ever going into any analytical detail on strategy or math or reasons why you did something or why others may have done something in an actual hand.
For extra credit: make light mocking jokes at others' actions like when they get caught in a bluff or they check back a strong hand on a super-safe card or they FINALLY raise a hand pre after folding for an hour. Again you are completely distracting everybody from noticing your own collection of similar activities.
Ideal: be thought of as THE TABLE CLOWN -- but friendly-like (imagine the best aspects of Matusow tabletalk combined with the harmlessness of Negreanu tabletalk). Get in the flow withthis and you'll be amazed at how quickly others open up, with both their chips and their words. Soon you've got a table full of laughter (and thus looser play!) and some will even start defending themselves or others and voila Free Information!


3. Post-flop here is a way to build an INTENTIONAL image, and as a side effect probably "wake up" a table that is too quiet and serious: if last to act, before mucking (win or lose) SHOW -- with over the top confidence -- a SINGLE card. Make sure it is your "BEST" card, either one that makes the highest pair on the board or is the highest flush card or the perfect straight card or is an Ace or King if he above is not possible...
RESULT? The nits and TAGfish will get confused about your motives and over-think WHY you would give out free information, and will often voice outwardly their own thought process about your hand! But often they will decide to fold to you often pre and otf because "you always seem to have it" (their words!)
And the STATIONS (that you now have all to yourself mostly) will do a lot more "check to the raiser" stupidity thus allowing you to enjoy more free cards as needed. And since they are so cautious you can easily fold to THEIR aggression because it's always for value against you.
But you only do this SINGLE-show a few times, early on. Make sure to laugh and mumble something ambiguous if nobody really reacts. Give it time, eventually someone will say something -- and others may respond to that and even debate and ask you to settle the argument. Laugh it off, or tell them 5 different versions of your hand over the course of the next 2 minutes -- theb lean in to your neighbor and whisper something innocuous and smile and drop it.
Then LATER after you have been showing mostly winners at showdown and notice they are folding too often when you value-bet scary cards START DOING IT AGAIN BUT THIS TIME ONLY SHOW THE "JUNK" CARD! *now* talk about confusing the nits and TAGfish! Once they are clearly over-adjusting to your BS you can valuebet the hell out of bottom 2 pair and enjoy the frightening light call-downs from the previously-known-as-nits, watch them check-shove their overpairs and even overCARDS to your over-bet with an obvious-to-anyone flopped trips! Remember when they used to consider a stack-worthy "monster" middle set? Thing of the past


...


Through a combination of the above, you can get most of the table on this kind of foggy-brained tilt while you are in complete control and in full awareness = the best kind of moment in live poker. And insanely profitable if you stay disciplined and patient.




*Edmonton live games, what? Check Google for a discussion on another forum -- Why Edmonton Has The Best Low Limit (1/2 or 2/5) Action in The World (Literally)
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Old 07-09-2014, 09:59 AM   #406
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

Someone sent me a link to this and I strongly disagreed with the OP, although he made some decent points in later posts. I was shocked to read on and see so many people agreeing with what he said. I was just thinking "Jfc doesn't anyone disagree with this?" Then I saw this...

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Originally Posted by TAOxEaglex View Post
This OP is going to do alot of damage, not necessarily in a good way.
...which was hilarious to me on multiple levels.
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Old 07-09-2014, 12:10 PM   #407
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

I think this is the most misapplied thread in the history of 2+2.
That being said I do a lot of the things that are mentioned with success. It's just so easy to read this and go insane. Playing in control is the key for me.
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Old 07-09-2014, 12:54 PM   #408
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

This only works when you play with new people all of the time or horrible players. Anyone observant is going to figure out what you are doing in a few orbits and start 3 betting all your late position raises light and/or calling you down in late position light.

Although I wish it were not true, poker is not as simple as the OP would like to make you believe. Either that, or I need to find a new game.
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Old 07-09-2014, 01:24 PM   #409
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

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Originally Posted by fitzthetaxman View Post
This only works when you play with new people all of the time or horrible players. Anyone observant is going to figure out what you are doing in a few orbits and start 3 betting all your late position raises light and/or calling you down in late position light.

Although I wish it were not true, poker is not as simple as the OP would like to make you believe. Either that, or I need to find a new game.
No. In fact, if you do find a game like that.... switch tables or position. Most people don't just start 3betting/adjusting accordingly in LLSNL. Even an awesome player who see's this happening will probably stay out of your way for the most part and eat fish with you. (I never really read this thread, so I am not agreeing with anything OP wrote, I am responding to people adjusting to you and what not)

The problem is exactly what others said, people easily misapply this kind of advice/play. I honestly think most people think they play like this, when in reality they are a bunch of nits. Between some coaching sessions and what I witnessed in the past few months I realized people have a very wild imagination when it comes to their skill and they are capped in their growth.

Last edited by AcePlayerDeluxe; 07-09-2014 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 07-09-2014, 01:33 PM   #410
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

I would agree for the most part and this is exactly what anything I have read about live low stakes hold em would say which is to punish the limpers in position. I'm not sure about a hand like 84 but at a passive table raising in position does win lots of uncontested pots. But if it is a crazy table where everyone calls I can't see raising with J10 in position. If we limp behind and hit we are still scooping the money with our value bets. It is somewhat dependent on who the limpers are and what their stack sizes are.
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Old 07-09-2014, 02:27 PM   #411
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

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Originally Posted by AcePlayerDeluxe View Post
No. In fact, if you do find a game like that.... switch tables or position. Most people don't just start 3betting/adjusting accordingly in LLSNL. Even an awesome player who see's this happening will probably stay out of your way for the most part and eat fish with you. (I never really read this thread, so I am not agreeing with anything OP wrote, I am responding to people adjusting to you and what not)

The problem is exactly what others said, people easily misapply this kind of advice/play. I honestly think most people think they play like this, when in reality they are a bunch of nits. Between some coaching sessions and what I witnessed in the past few months I realized people have a very wild imagination when it comes to their skill and they are capped in their growth.
Sounds like I am in the wrong home game. But the casino is too far away to make playing regularly realistic.
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Old 07-09-2014, 02:40 PM   #412
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

This works a lot when u run good, cause nowadays ppl call really light. 1/2,2/5 understand the basic concept of poker, so they know what's going on a little bit. But i dont think it's applied anymore for morderm poker games, u got to choose ur starting hand more careful, play careful oop and aggressive in position. That being said, killing 1-2,2-5 is still not that hard, just little different
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Old 07-09-2014, 02:44 PM   #413
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

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Originally Posted by fitzthetaxman View Post
Sounds like I am in the wrong home game. But the casino is too far away to make playing regularly realistic.
Or you are not adjusting as much as you think you are (or not adjusting properly). Some people start experimenting with different adjustments in order to regain/gain an edge in a game they are regulars in. What typically happens is a) They "run bad" so they stop making those adjustments or b) they run good, but are misapplying new concepts/adjustments and end up picking up some bad habits (it turns real bad when the run good stops).

I have witnessed people in my regular home game try to make adjustments and they end up butchering everything and return to their normal way of play. I have also done this. You have to figure out the balance of making adjustments and out playing/thinking your opponents. It's not as simple as the OP in this thread makes it, but once you get it a whole new world view opens up. Tao said it good though, just because you get what OP is saying doesn't mean you play like that all the time. You always make the most +EV adjustments for the game you are in.
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Old 07-09-2014, 11:43 PM   #414
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

If a thoughtful player sits with OP he gets all of his chips most of the time.

Yes, this works when your playing the 60+ NIT crowd Saturday morning, but thats not always the dynamics at 1/2.

i go in to this mode when the table warrants it, but there are plenty of old guys at the casino I play at that can't wait to call down this guy.

i hope for people like this to sit at my table.
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Old 07-10-2014, 11:31 AM   #415
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

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Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
This forum has given me lots of help over the years, both with poker and life. So I'll try to give back by outlining how to crush live 1-2 and 2-5 holdem games.

I've been playing in these games since they got popular in about 2004. I played almost every day in 2004-2005, but have since gotten old and boring and only play 3-4 times a year. If you're like me, and you're on this site so you probably are, you started off in NL thinking that a standard TAG style was the way to get the money. And while you will make money playing this style, you won't crush the game. Even the idiots in these games will peg you as a tight player, and you won't get paid off enough. So you'll only make big scores by coolering people or having a total maniac/idiot sit down.

The way to crush these games is through the relentless use of position and aggression. Think about when you see people with huge stacks in these games - the 6+ buy-in stacks. Are they sitting there set-mining? No. They are playing lots of pots, and they are playing very aggressively. When you confuse opponents at this level, and they are very easy to confuse, they will make HUGE mistakes against you. This is how you start killing the game.

The Golden Rule: Play as many pots as possible in position. Bunch of limpers to you on the button with Q8s? Raise. J10 off? Raise. Any pocket pair, raise. Make the pot bigger because you're going to make way, way better decisions then your opponents and the positional advantage is huge. And sooner or later, and probably sooner, you're going to show down one of your awful hands and you will be labeled a maniac by the clowns who don't even know what position is let alone how to account for it.

Now of course you aren't really a maniac at all. In most cases, raise in late position and bet any flop, but shut down if called. Take free cards a bunch. Your opponents will be really confused by your play. They won't think "that guy raises all the time, I'm going to play back at him.' They'll think "that guy is always raising, he could have anything, I'm going to check to him." Low limit players are already way too passive, and by confusing them you make them even more so, which is great for you.

As an aside, every once in a while these guys will do something incredibly retarded because they are sick of you raising all the time. So like you'll raise KQ in late position, the flop will be QQ4, you make a continuation bet and some donk decides to check raise you all in because no way can you have the queen. See they will see you winning tons of pots without a showdown and decide to eventually do something about it, but they suck at poker and don't understand position, so they'll just end up making huge mistakes. They'll say things like "figures, the ONE TIME HE ACTUALLY HAD SOMETHING!" Just smile, shrug, and stack their chips.

Now, since these guys are awful, you want to play pots with them, especially if you are at all deep. The average low limit player is horrible at playing deep and makes no adjustments. So if a donk raises in early position and you're deep, call with your 84s in late position. When you make 2 pair or a straight he will call off his whole stack with his aces - remember, you are the maniac who can have anything. This is why you shut down on the flop in most cases when you are the aggressor: once they make it to the turn they really don't want to fold.

Now of course this means you should be value betting everything. If they make a hand, they'll let you know about it. They will play exactly how you want them to and basically never put you to a hard decision. Remember, they're scared to raise you because you could have anything! So when you're value-betting they will call with worse a bunch and only raise their monsters. Perfect for you.

Hope this is helpful to some folks, happy to answer questions if anyone has them.
i just realized i am the donk
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Old 11-27-2014, 07:11 AM   #416
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How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

I just played with one described here. Older guy with 500bb, while table was like 100bb. Had just sat down when the hand happened and hadn't read this post. On my 5th hand , I m dealt QQ, raise to 15, villain call. Board 82263r. I bet 3/4 pot every street and he called and raised me on river. He had A2 he stacked couple of other NEW players too. He was as close to the player described here as possible. And it seemed to be working.

Last edited by dangecarlos; 11-27-2014 at 07:17 AM.
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Old 11-27-2014, 11:22 AM   #417
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

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Originally Posted by Flushie View Post
If a thoughtful player sits with OP he gets all of his chips most of the time.

Yes, this works when your playing the 60+ NIT crowd Saturday morning, but thats not always the dynamics at 1/2.

i go in to this mode when the table warrants it, but there are plenty of old guys at the casino I play at that can't wait to call down this guy.

i hope for people like this to sit at my table.
Do you understand that some old man who is intent on putting me in my place by "Calling me Down" is exactly what we are looking for?

Now, a really good tag, who is able and willing, and that is a very rare combination at normal stakes, to realize what I am doing and play back at me with marginal/air/semi bluff type hands..............that is a different story. Good Lags hate guessing and calling off. So that is how you beat them. You do not exploit them by catching a preflop monster and check calling them. Watch two competent high stakes players in pots with one another and all you are seeing is leveling wars between LAGS of varying degree and ability.

When a Lag floats your OOP flop c-bet, and then barrels an overcard turn after you check, start raising him and see how fast he backs down and stays in line.
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Old 11-28-2014, 03:39 AM   #418
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

I am assuming you say that "able and willing to play back at you is rare" is because the players who are "able" to do so are not "willing" because there is so much more dead $ at the tables and no need to increase variance and get into leveling wars against the 1 MAYbe 2 other players at the table who are thinking above level 0.5(1/2 nl) and 1.0 (2/5nl)
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Old 11-28-2014, 04:59 AM   #419
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

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Originally Posted by Flushie View Post
If a thoughtful player sits with OP he gets all of his chips most of the time.

Yes, this works when your playing the 60+ NIT crowd Saturday morning, but thats not always the dynamics at 1/2.

i go in to this mode when the table warrants it, but there are plenty of old guys at the casino I play at that can't wait to call down this guy.

i hope for people like this to sit at my table.
This style would work in the games I play in the evenings and nights. And I don't see how the old guys would outplay the OP because he would be attacking the old guys when he has position and playing less aggressively on the later betting rounds when he doesn't have a hand.

I don't hope for people like this to play at my table because they won't pay you off as easily as the other players when you hit, they will have position, they will often have initiative, and they will be a much better player than the rest of the competition. I'd even strongly prefer playing against the reg who plays a little on the nitty side but still makes some basic mistakes.
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Old 11-28-2014, 05:48 AM   #420
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

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Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
If you're like me, and you're on this site so you probably are, you started off in NL thinking that a standard TAG style was the way to get the money. And while you will make money playing this style, you won't crush the game. Even the idiots in these games will peg you as a tight player, and you won't get paid off enough. So you'll only make big scores by coolering people or having a total maniac/idiot sit down.
I think there is a lot of truth to this. On this forum I see a lot of comments like these:

"ABC is the most profitable style to play at these levels."

"Don't bluff at 1-2 NL."

"These guys will pay you off."

I don't think these are as true as people think. I've been disappointed too often in the past few months because I tend to have a tight image and when I start to bet big on the later rounds with a big hand, I feel that I don't get paid enough. I've started making bigger bluffs more often in certain situations and so far it's worked extremely well with my tight image.

Opponents still play too many hands OOP and will get themselves in trouble against me more often than they should, but when the board looks scary and the big bets come out I find the mediocre players are folding more often than I'd like. Also, a lot of players wait until they have it before betting big, and this encourages opponents to fold against me (because they assume I'm doing what other players do, which is rarely betting big unless I got there).

Quote:

Now of course you aren't really a maniac at all. In most cases, raise in late position and bet any flop, but shut down if called. Take free cards a bunch. Your opponents will be really confused by your play. They won't think "that guy raises all the time, I'm going to play back at him.' They'll think "that guy is always raising, he could have anything, I'm going to check to him." Low limit players are already way too passive, and by confusing them you make them even more so, which is great for you....



Now, since these guys are awful, you want to play pots with them, especially if you are at all deep. The average low limit player is horrible at playing deep and makes no adjustments. So if a donk raises in early position and you're deep, call with your 84s in late position. When you make 2 pair or a straight he will call off his whole stack with his aces - remember, you are the maniac who can have anything. This is why you shut down on the flop in most cases when you are the aggressor: once they make it to the turn they really don't want to fold.
I'm surprised at the advice to shut down on the turn. I would think the flop bets don't get that much respect against a lag, and players often tighten up on the turn when their hands weaken and the bets get bigger. Plus they tend to have weak ranges on the turn, so even if they don't like to fold, they won't be so eager to remain in the hand with only one card to come when they are facing a large bet. It's not uncommon for players to call a c-bet on the flop to see if you are serious on the turn (when I say players don't pay off enough, I'm talking about the turn and river when the bets get big; players are much looser on the earlier betting rounds).

I'm not sure why I didn't notice this earlier but I've gotten better over time and this thread is always interesting to me when I read it again. I wonder what others think about shutting down on the turn so often.



Quote:
As an aside, every once in a while these guys will do something incredibly retarded because they are sick of you raising all the time. So like you'll raise KQ in late position, the flop will be QQ4, you make a continuation bet and some donk decides to check raise you all in because no way can you have the queen. See they will see you winning tons of pots without a showdown and decide to eventually do something about it, but they suck at poker and don't understand position, so they'll just end up making huge mistakes. They'll say things like "figures, the ONE TIME HE ACTUALLY HAD SOMETHING!" Just smile, shrug, and stack their chips....


Now of course this means you should be value betting everything. If they make a hand, they'll let you know about it. They will play exactly how you want them to and basically never put you to a hard decision. Remember, they're scared to raise you because you could have anything! So when you're value-betting they will call with worse a bunch and only raise their monsters. Perfect for you.
The parts in bold seem a little inconsistent to me, but I guess you can defend that by saying they will spew really badly a little more and that in general, they will play predictably. So it does make sense that you would benefit from both being true.
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Old 11-28-2014, 05:53 AM   #421
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flushie View Post
If a thoughtful player sits with OP he gets all of his chips most of the time.

Yes, this works when your playing the 60+ NIT crowd Saturday morning, but thats not always the dynamics at 1/2.

i go in to this mode when the table warrants it, but there are plenty of old guys at the casino I play at that can't wait to call down this guy.

i hope for people like this to sit at my table.
Why would you hope for people like this to sit at your table? We're talking about a lag who knows what he is doing that is a very good player. We're not talking about the typical bad lag player who doesn't have a clue.
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Old 11-28-2014, 10:22 AM   #422
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Re: How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

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Originally Posted by Pork Fri Rize View Post
I am assuming you say that "able and willing to play back at you is rare" is because the players who are "able" to do so are not "willing" because there is so much more dead $ at the tables and no need to increase variance and get into leveling wars against the 1 MAYbe 2 other players at the table who are thinking above level 0.5(1/2 nl) and 1.0 (2/5nl)
Yes, this is exactly what I mean. I can stand one other LAG at the table playing this style, but at 1/2 that's it. Most 2/5's it's going to be 3 or sometimes 4 total. If it is 1/2, I will try to make little subtle comments to encourage him to stay out of my pots and vice versa. If a river goes check/check, I will show him I had an easy bluff or value bet that I passed on to reinforce that we should be targeting the 7 mouth breathers and not each other. If he makes an obvious (to me at least) bluff against someone and it works, I will give him the needle "try that against me sometime". I also don't want him sitting to close, 3 and 8 seats would be ideal. If we are friends it would be considered collusion, but creating good game conditions with a stranger through banter, I think that passes the smell test.
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