I'm interested to hear why you think you have more fold equity with short stacks... I've always believed that you had less because (1) people feel more committed to their hand when a bunch oc their stack is already in the middle, (2) people who look at bets in terms of money instead of BB's are willing to "spend" say 50 dollars on a one pair hand, but might be unwilling to spend 200 on the same hand and (c) it's really hard to size our bets in a way that allows for a decent sized bet on the river, so we don't have a chance to fire a third barrel if a scare card hits of if we want to try to get them off of, say, a bricked nut flush draw when we have smaller cards...

Dont weak players LOVE c/shoving a piece of flop when short? same with OESD and FD? How often do you see passive players getting all their money in on draws? Only when shortstacked for the most part. No FE there.....

You guys are thinking about it the wrong way. The commitment threshold is more of a concern when stacks are short. People know if they call bets they become committed. So they are fit/fold otf/ott. If you range well and depending on board texture you should know when to pump the brakes. General Example: flop is 1074 we cbet get called A/K turn we double and get them to fold their weak pairs. Say Flop is A86 we cbet with air get called, now is the time to pump the brakes unless villain checks to us twice ott and otr.

Take a deep stack game. With a bunch of loose passives and everyone is 500bbs. You're going to the river everytime their stacks are never at risk unless its a 3bet pot. Masaraksh post HH in chat thread all the time with deep stack's. He has little fe and looks like a complete spew monkey.

Hope that makes sense.

You must have a whole lot of faith in your double barreling all in ability when the turn comes then. I would think alot of the time we will have our pants down with ace high if we double the turn. I assume you only fire the turn on a J/Q/K/A turn card with broadways? I don't think villains will fold their ppair on a blank 2 ott, or top pair.

I see people calling $50 with 50 behind ott often without realizing they are committed. Either that or they aren't concerned/thinking about it.

I'm talking about manageable stacks not 20bbs lmao. 40-80bbs stacks.

It depends a lot on board texture and how I set up my turn barrels. Its not blind aggression. Its called ranging your opponent and when his ranged is capped I will put him to the test. When he is strong I back off. Its not hard man!

gotcha... kinda

But no, I understand the double barrel at the 60-80bb range.

40 - 80bb is not a short-stack. That's why people didn't understand what you were saying. 40 - 80 is an ideal range for pressuring passive opponents because they are probably planning to play for a while and are hoping their stack lasts for a few hours before they have to rebuy or leave.

Partly due to this post i have been punishing opponents from the button and cutoff. its amazing because they think you are a maniac. Be the guy who raises to 20 with sever limpers at a 1-2 table? be that guy no matter what your hand is and watch people start calling you light.

as for people with 40-80bb putting them to the test is profitable and safe, They don't have enough chips to burn you but they have enough to fold when they don't have the goods. You wont win big from these people (until they get fed up) but you can chip up for 10-15bbs at a time.

honestly this King of poker style isnt as profitable as you would think

playing TAG, opening the majority of pots you enter and 3betting a wider range than most 1/2 players (exploiting their bet sizing mostly) is how i play and i rarely lose. honestly most of these players are idiots so only playing premiums and pairs is like printing mney bc they "put you on AK" and call u down with middle pair with 109o

honesty, ive played LAG and yes you can easily chip up however playing the top range of hands and value owning these fish is the way to go. yes, i also play multiway hands and know how to extract value, but i like a Tag style

Disagree, you just don't get enough hands to play that way. You'll be lucky to make $15-$20/hr with that style in most games.

If we're talking about 1/2, then yes $15-20 is probably the maximum you can make due to rake/tips/the tendency for most people to not buy in full, etc.

2/5 you can make way more.

You're "KOP" story said that you burned through 20 buyins playing it, and now recently you're winning. Honestly it just sounds like you're on a heater. You don't really describe what KOP style is anyways..

KOP post was gold. If you didn't see the logic in the post go back and read it. Think outside the box. Instead of "you lost 20 buyins your on a heater". You have to use deductive logic in poker. Your going to here general statements all the time. I had a conversation with another poster about the kop poker style. It takes practice but if you get it down you will own souls. Especially loose passives, which make up 90% of our population in llsnl.

I am using logic.

Logically any style where you burn through 20 buy-ins (basically a full roll), sounds like a losing strategy to me...

20 buyins isn't the correct way to describe it based on how people say buyins around here. I lost about $2k, i was playing a lot of games where the max buyin was $100 back then.

Obviously I didn't really play the style I'm referring to until I at least doubled up each time.

This was several years ago, maybe 2009 or so when I first learned it and lost a lot. I was used to playing pots with AK vs AQ so it's a lot different when you first start playing 6-8 vs 10-10. I was calling down too light because I thought other people were adjusting to my style. The other mistake I was making was trying to play this style against a few opponents who did adjust by 3-betting, checking and calling all three streets with one pair, etc.


Think of poker as a pyramid. The first round of betting is the top of the pyramid. You're raising preflop to ~$6-$10 and getting it in slightly bad. A lot of people are obsessed with isolating 1-2 opponents in every pot. When you have a crap hand your equity relative to your investment (and more importantly your implied odds) goes UP the MORE opponents you have in the pot. So forget isolating. What good is isolating 68o against pocket 10's? I want 5-6 opponents and a $30 pot that I only put $6 into.

The flop is the next level of the pyramid. I'm looking to flop BIG and then take advantage of the fact that people are terrible in large pots. When they bet they often bet too small and give me odds to draw to 2pair, straights, or flushes. Some people overbet huge so they don't get stacked by a draw, which is great when you flop huge. And of course I'm value betting the crap out of good top pair hands when i hit against 2-3 opponents (i dont always have 6-8 sometimes i do get AQ).

The great news is that live players almost always check to the raiser. Which means I usually get to see the 4th card for free if I only flop a pair, miss my set, or jsut have backdoor draws. This gets me a heck of a lot closer to hitting a big hand even when I flop weak.

C-bet? I never c-bet unless I flop huge. Why would I ever c-bet in a 6 way flop with a weak pair or less?

The good news about 6 people to the flop is someone at the table always has a hand they can't let go. That's what we want when we flop huge, right? I don't wanna bet the flop and have my isolated player fold.

On the river the base of the pyramid is very wide. Since live players are easy to read AND I'm typically in position I get huge value on this card. They make horrible plays in bloated pots. They cant fold to me because I'm a donkey who raises every hand preflop (i actually fold like 50% of the time, but people don't seem to notice folds as much) and has showed several bluffs with nothing already.

Taking a flop 6 handed with 6-8 off you'd be surprised how much equity you have in the pot. Particularly when you often get a free turn.

Oh and here's the other thing. I don't always have 6-8 off. I can't tell you how many times I've flopped a set or 2 pair and gotten all-in when we were deep on the flop against someone with a weak pair. My flushes get paid. Hell, sometimes I get people checkraising me all in with middle pair when I have AK and hit the flop.

All you have to do is understand SPR and understand which opponents are adjusting to how you play. You'll run a few bluffs and get picked off. That's okay. You're the King of Poker and routinely run $200 stack into $1,000+. It feels good man. I could never sit there all day hoping to get JJ vs AK and 3 bet someone from the big blind hoping they'll shove. Save those small edges for 1,000 h/hr online poker. You need to be stacking people in live poker.

At 1/2, almost no one makes $20 an hour.

At good tables $20 an hour is a joke if you know how to play live poker well.

I agree there are some tables with competent players where $20/hour is not sustainable because of the rake and inability to exploit enough of the players.

the funny thing is where i play i literally just play ABC tag and i have the best results

when i would try to outplay and isolate with 108s i would get achieve even results

i pretty much play abc, raise to 12 pre+1 per limper with premiums and semibluff like a mofo in limp pots or to outplay overpairs and have made $40 and hour the past week


sucks when im card dead but the thing i dont do is get into bluffing wars and only play for stacks with the goods or a big draw


also i 3 bet for value against KOP players all day with any premiums
they always think i have it becauses i raise pre with premiums which crushes their range


hiwever as many ppeople have mentioned i make funny off the fish and not KOP, they are easy to read so i bluff them when entering their pots with marginals in multi way pots and outplay them

but i dont try and outplay them every hand

The key is not trying to outplay them every hand but giving them the image that you are.

If I'm in late position with 4-5 suited against 6 players I have close to 16% equity in the pot anyway so why not raise preflop? Everyone can correctly play tight in a limped pot, but they aren't capable of doing that in a raised pot.

I find that if you are looking out for the correct spots you can play TAG all day and give off the image of being a different type of player pretty easily. After I have raised with a 45s and spiked a flop against a passive player who called my PFR with JJ and gotten 3 streets of value and I show it down then all of a sudden everyone at the table thinks I am a maniac who will raise with anything and they think Im always lying. Then its time to TAG up and take a trip to valuecity!!! Even after I have shown down the winner two or three times in a row, people are still talking about the time I "got lucky" after I went crazy and raised with 45... Love live poker

I just play at the table with 5 drunk guys, 2 of which fall in and out of sleep, a midget, and 3 Chinese businessmen.

riverman, good ****.

thats so true...and no better way to get the proper read on opponents than by playing hands with em to understand their breaking points and tendencies

but i have to laugh to myself a bit that op's way of giving back also introduces nasty swings that will crush small stake player's souls no matter how good at poker

step down in stakes to experiment folks...so 1-x players don't even bother

Calling hAnds like 84s otb cuz your 500bb+ deep isn't just about post flop play or anything else as much as it is important that villian is 500bb+ deep as well.. I read this thread for a while without anyone of you pointing this out so I had to say it..

My hometown card room is deepstacked 70% of the time. While I've had idiots call me a donkey for calling hands like j9 suited for $30+ in a 1/1/2 game against a villian pushing AA all the way on my connecting flop.... I can shutdown on a miss and deal with the small loss... Or stack of a sick $700+ win.. < ~ obv villian dependent but fortunAtely unless its obvious loss board for aa most people at these stakes can't do it.

I don't feel the need to repeat a lot of others comments that were already said my main point is first thing is make sure villian is just as deep as you before continuing or you will never get the implied odds to call here.

if a brand new inexperienced poker player (i mean 1st poker game new) sits down beside you, then you play as many hands with that player as you can while watching out for others...you'll eventually have all that players money. test it out with family or friends as often as you'd like..it doesnt take long to get in NL.

well, if you put recreational small stake players to the test continually..then they play like that brand new inexperienced poker player. they'll make the absolute worst adjustments, wrong spots for aggression, hand selection, calls, etc. Implied odds isn't the main idea. You'll eventually get all their chips.

problem is, where you use to buy in 1 or 2 times to get the job done...now you'll be buying in 1 to 5. all the sudden the "swing" you'd experience in a week..you get in a session. another problem is this action driven style can be problematic if you got any sort of degen gene..you have to separate gamble from aggression..and somehow ignore the sweet high of making 8-10 buyins in a great session..you absolutely cant be the type that chases money..this style is not peaceful..would you rather work in a hectic kitchen or a cubicle sorta thing

so the logical question is, how do you measure the proposed successfullness of this style. well, you can't nerd it up like we do with implied odd calcs/assumptions. you just have to understand people will break down/choke...they absolutely fall to pieces under the right amounts of pressure. war