again +1 to this. exactly what I had been thinking about when planning my live strategy after seeing how the games played

@Riverman; you advocate a very loose playing style, yet there have been some comments about how fish tend to overbet preflop. This has always been a sore spot with me, since IMO you cant really call a 10BB raise. I win most of my money by having the initiative, or on those rare occasions actually getting to see a cheap flop with a drawing hand.

How do you like to play so loose when villains have adopted -EV bet-sizing? Do you just prey on the limpers & dodge the overbets?

He's already made it clear that he plays in very deep games, 300+ BB.

i have been employing the strategy outlined in the op and have a few issues we can work through:

when i pound in position with a marginal hand preflop against limpers about half the time i get it down to 1-2 players and about half the time there are still 3-4 others going to the flop with me. ive genrally adopted the play to cbet most flops regardless of whether i hit when there are 1-2 and playing mostly fit or fold when there are 3-4. thought to get it down to 1-2 more so i can actually utilize position more i can increase my preflop raise size? but its like how comfortable can i be popping it to 10bb when a lot of eff stacks are only 100bb and sometimes these hands also include a limping shortstack or two? are we just tightening up our game late position preflop when this is the case? i suppose more limping at that point? hopefully this can stimulate more conversation itt

I don't c-bet a lot of flops with multiple players, but I also don't mind the calls either. Even if I'm playing a marginal hand like JT, I STILL think I can play it more profitably multiway with a big pot if I'm in position. I'll be able to get away when I hit and am dominated, yet I'll be able to get good value when others have a second best hand (and with four or five limp/callers, there are lots of opportunitites for players to make second pair type hands).

The way I figure is, I'll be able to continue with my hand about 1/3 of the time. If I have three callers, then I'm still profiting from those calls even though I end up folding 2/3 of the time, because the 1/3 I get to continue nets me on average AT LEAST 3x what I invested, which makes up for the 2/3 times I have to let it go. I'm not saying I always win when I hit, but I am saying my average profit is going to be good enough due to my positional advantage.

Playing bloated pots in position is a good thing for you, no matter whether you are heads up or multiway.

I have been studying a lot of scenarios lately. And, the newest thing I've learned when it comes to cbetting 1/2 games........flop texture, calling ranges, and turn barrels are incredibly important to know.

Ex. A 8 4r flop vs K 8 4r vs K T 4r
Ex. Nit limp/calls vs Fish limp/calls
Ex. Knowing which turn cards fold weak made hands and which improve, and therefore never fold, weak made hands.

Putting it all together solves a lot of the cbetting issues very quickly. The better you are at recognizing cbet/turn barrel spots, the less important your cards become in position. (FYI, my cards are still fairly important. )

Woud love to read your analysis of these three flops. My own is that in position, flops 1 & 2 are good c-betting boards, but that the KT board leaves your opponent with a more likely pair, 2 pair, or straight draw / gutshot.

Of course, if you know villain loves to play weak aces, you may not want to c-bet A84r without the ace yourself.

More?

Knowing and understanding these thoroughly are huge. Particularly #1 and #2 have made a huge difference in my game.

For me flop one is hardly worth cbetting at standard 1/2 tables. Even my nits will limp/call with a heavy weak/mid Ace range. Add in some peeling pp's like QQ-99, and when called, I'm smoked when I'm cbetting air. That in and of itself isn't bad if I felt I could ever 2barrel this flop. The reality is: I can't. The analysis I did with pencil and paper and breaking apart the hand ranges of different types of villains yielded the same ratio. Half of the time, someone connected with flop one. And, of the hands that hit it, half of those hit it pretty well with 2nd pair at a minimum. Depending on your villain, most of the hands that hit this flop aren't even necessarily folding to any turn card. To me, that's not worth a cbet.

Flop two was MUCH better because of the lack of an ace. Instead of half the hand combos hitting this flop, now about 1/3 did...and about 3/4 those "should" fold to most turns. The AX hands won't peel w/o a pair the vast majority of the time. So, the A on the turn actually becomes a good barrel card to get QQ-/2nd pair to fold. Same would go for a QXXr or JXXr flop imo. But, you don't want to get too low because more overpairs that flat raises in 1/2 games come into play....and they don't like to fold until an overcard falls.

Flop three is exactly what was mentioned. The draws. So many combos hit a small made hand or a weak to strong draw. And, at 1/2, they don't raise their draws often in my games.....certainly don't c/r. Depending on your villain, you can barrel, though. The wider the calling ranges, the more you have to know which cards to barrel. Look for turns that "improve" drawing hands. On K T 7ss, I would be leery of barreling the third spade, ldo, an 8, 9, J, Q, or A, unless it also improved me. Those cards really help gutters and open-enders by giving them a missing straight card or suddenly giving them a weak pair to continue drawing. The best adage I've read in a long time is: Players rarely fold on turns when they improve. So, we have to watch for that big time. The tighter the villain's calling range preflop, the more you may be able to play scare cards here, though.....typically vs nits. Their range is so pp-heavy, and they usually know pot odds. So, it may be worth a gamble to 2barrel a scare card that completes a draw vs nits because most of their draws may have disappeared to a nice cbet on the flop.

However, the only way to get a feel for this is to do the work yourself. And, it takes time. I've played for a lot of years and I've never done the work until last week. I plan on doing more, but it's hard to find the time because it's boring. However, if we want to be clairvoyant when turns and rivers hit, we need to do the work....plain and simple. The more we practice, the faster we will recognize spots like these.

Absolutely crushed the game this weekend in Vegas. It's really pretty crazy what otherwise rational/decent players will do at these limits once you gain the wild image.

At one point I showed one 10 high bluff and stacked three guys who probably wouldn't have otherwise stacked off in the following hour. Nobody ever folded top pair or better against me. I can't imagine how boring standard TAG play is in live games.

just a reminder

ivey plays on pure instincts and ballerism

he doesn't stay home all day and read posts

keep your mind as clear as possible while at the table

Thats awesome. Was feeling that in jan and feb. fun to rack up wins when you have that image and run good. Know what sucks? Having a laggy image, running bad, and getting called down. My march.

being a maniac just can make them play so badly in so many ways, it's infinite really.

yesterday, I raised w/ air in a multi way unraised straddled pot IP into what seemed to be a 'see where i'm at' bet, and a caller.
both called, and i'm done with the hand.
turn check check check.
river pairs the board.
better makes a small bet, the other guy just calls.
their hands?
top set, and middle set, which boated the river.
they were both waiting for me to bet on every street, and hoping i would raise the river so that they left a ton of money on the table, and top set won a small pot when he should have stacked middle set 100% of the time if he was just playing his game, instead of reacting to a maniac who just took a stab..

I get free cards all the time, ppl trap trap trap until the river, until the draw comes in, and then they jam it.
they make bad raises and bets into me all the time because they 'want to get the hand over with' because theyre uncomfortable playing against a maniac.
they peel me with middle pair, or overs all the time, but fold to the nits.
the funny thing is, that i'm just as big of a nit, or even bigger. they call it an active image for a reason. it's an image. ie. it's not real.
i'm finally getting better about not spewwing too much, and achieving the same effect cheaper. you have to end up spewwing a lot in order to practice being a profitable maniac; you will wind up paying tuition, that's for sure.

this is the holy grail for me. Toughest part of the game. Playing against people that can do this is horrible. Being one of these players must be great. Gotta dodge bullets.

One thing that i struggle with is that i like to be aggressive, but if someone adjusts they will just let you bet off your stack. So then i adjust and turn down the aggression. Now im playing passively, and imo not well. Whats the best option here?

Checkout some live at the bike shows with "Corporation Mike". Guy is a maniac but a controlled one.

Mike is pretty horrible, and prolly a break even player at best.
He makes money by being the bank in the Bikes pai gao games,
aka "corporation'. he's the corporation (him and his Mom).

he does a lot of bad stuff a good lag never would do.
at the same time, he can rep ATC on a lot of boards because he's so loose PF, but he almost never tries to. I could see him as being unpredictable, but he really just likes to gamble.

I didn't say he was good player. But maybe we can agree that he is a maniac that pot controls and when the money g
oes in he has it.

Only problem, he is rich, he pot controls a lot and calls very light otr because he sits with 10k at a 5/10 game and checks a lot of turns.

http://suntzusaid.com/book/6/8.

the idea is to cast a fog on the battlefield, in order to confuse, and disorient your villians.
only be careful, least you wind up in your own trap.

Best sentence in a couple of pages imo. Don't go maniacal for maniacal's sake. Have a purpose.

Posting from iphone so please excuse lack of puncuation/grammar.

Theres a lot of garbage advice going around this thread. Players should be learning styles of play that will not only help them beat their current stakes but the higher stakes as well. You see players like op making stabs at 5/10 all the time and they never even make it past the must move tables. That sort of bully the table im a crazy player pay me off sort of thing just doesnt work vs a competent table.

Im going to give the most controversial advice your probably ever going to hear. Aggression is overrated and more importantly misunderstood. Most players and this includes many 5/10 regs dont understand the value of checking and pot control. This stems from the very nature of grinding it up through the lower stakes and not adapting to tougher games.

You see it all the time online. There was a huge skill gap between 1/2 and 2/4 players online. Its because there was very few fish at the higher stakes and this style of going to value town vs fishy regs just didnt work anymore. At 2/4 players needed to start pot controlling and under repping hands to get value from wider ranges from the tags and nits. Thats how you crush the higher stakes. A good mix of aggression/passive play. Want to see the merits of passive play? Try it with AK for a week. Dont 3bet it and check flops with it. Watch all these hands youll be getting value from that you wouldnt be getting value from had you went for "value" by aggression. Youll quickly see my point. Theres merits to both aggression and passivity a good player uses both.

Point being if you want to actually get better and move up you should just learn good poker and not try to be some one trick pony thats going to run into a wall one day. You can crush 2/5 by playing a solid poker game that pot controls and chooses the right spots to make moves. Adapt to your table and try not to have this set idea of how your going to play.

I have flatted AK a few times this week and got paid.

Really solid post bro..

Yes, flatting AK sometimes would be part of balancing...

And most people around here think that balancing is unnecessary before 5/10. I agree with them in theory, though learning to do it well is as important as it being immediately useful.

To all of you that play this style....

What are your raising/limping ranges from the first 4 positions?

What are your ranges for blind stealing while in the blinds?

Assume table is typical loose passive 1/2 game with a couple nits, couple donks, and one call station guy.

They play fit or fold for the most part.

Also...

How long can you pound on a table before some players adjust?

Is it smart to leave the table after a few hours of this if you're up a couple buy ins?

I'm seriously considering trying this strategy at boring ass tables I get stuck at on weekdays.

If you played in california you would never 3bet AK. If I played any low stakes game in the country I wouldn't 3bet AK. Unless its AKo and I want folds with a shortstack. Ax hands are the hands fish never fold. Which is like 90% of our player pool. Raising only keeps high pocket pairs in and folds all low aces(AQ-).

You don't balance with your good hands. Balance is when you take a position like UTG. Most have a tight range from UTG. So you raise 97o to balance vs players who are playing optimal. Players don't really start playing optimal until 10/20+ which are uncapped games.