I got into a pre-flop spot the other day that has been bothering me a bit. Villains stack size made me a bit unsure of the best play here.

Hero MP ($470) Very young looking, dressed nicely. I've been at the table a while but villain in this hand has only been here for about 40 minutes. I was playing very tight for the most part but had AA and KK in the last orbit and played both aggressively. Only the KK hand went to showdown and I was not 3bet with either.

Villain MP+1 ($193) Mid-late 20s, seems solid. Bought in for $300. He got into a hand where he tank called another players all in raise on a flop of Q7J. Villain had QTo and the other guy had A9. Board ran out Q7J99 to ship the pot the other way. He did not rebuy after this hand but did build his stack back up a little. He was visibly annoyed but I don't think he was tilted.

Preflop Dealt QQ
Two limpers, Hero raises to $10 (same open as with AA, KK), Villain fairly quickly raises to $40

I didn't like this spot too much because this was one of two or three players at the table that I felt was competent. He definitely should have noticed that I had been playing tight but opened up more in the past orbit. After his raise he has $153 behind. What is my best option here? I took a while to considered all three. If we just flat are we are basically set mining at that point? Seems to be a bit expensive to set mine. If we 4bet are we committing to getting it in pre if he shoves? Can we ever 4bet/fold given stacks? Is this just a sigh fold? I really didn't know what was best here and I don't usually find myself lost in pre-flop spots.

Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks for looking.

4betting def commits your stack to a shove... im rarely getting stacks in with qq pre unless its a specific opponent/situation (ie someone who plays loose and i know im crushing)

whats V's 3betting range ip? you said he's competent.. can he 3bet lite?


if youre super unsure and dont want to risk 200, just fold and wait for a spot where youre more comfortable / ip

Standard is fold unless his 3b range is known to be wide.

I felt that he could be 3betting light. He had only been there for about 40 minutes so I didn't have too much insight on his play other than the call he made in that one hand. I felt that he could be trying to take advantage of my third opening raise in the past 6 hands but at the same time he had seen me playing very tight before that.

A little more information on the QTo hand would be helpful. Did he limp, call a raise or was in the BB pf? How did they get AI?

That said, you have the 3rd best starting hand in poker. If you're folding to a 3bet now, whatever you do, don't show it. I see someone folding to a 3bet with QQ, I'm going to 3bet the hell out of them until they react. Unless I know he can only 3bet AA and KK, I'm not folding. Someone who is putting their stack in with QTo isn't that tight. The only question now is how to maximize our value out of hands we beat.

If we call, the odds are good that the flop will have something that either AK or JJ doesn't like. We'll get no more money out of them. At the same time, unless an ace or king comes, we really can't fold. The SPR is under 3. Therefore, I put him all in ($200). It looks a bit bluffy. I've been called plenty of times by JJ or TT thinking I'm trying to protect AK.

Just 10$ preflop with QQ-AA? I'm always raising ~20-25$ preflop. And so should you.

As played, jam. If he's ahead it's a cooler. Next hand

I disagree with everything you said. I think a raise to $15-18 is better. Don't jam. Just sigh, fold, then say, you caught me.

With the given evidence of his play - stacking off with QTo - I'm quite comfortable with a jam here considering that $10 preflop is really not giving enough credit to your holding. Given villain action, there's a significantly larger variety of combos that you're ahead of, most considerably ahead of, that he would make this move with - AK, JJ, TT are all definites, AQ a smaller possibility - than there are of combos that have you crushed.

Agree with more preflop, although exactly how much more would be dependent on table dynamics. As precept said, $15-$18 is right, although if the table's set-miners will call anything, make it more.

By raising 22$ with QQ and getting reraised ~60-70$ by Villain IP, then I may consider folding. Betting 10$ pf with strong hands make decisions like these difficult. But hey, to each his own

W

ya i completely disagree with all of this as well

theres something called table dynamics, which youre completely ignoring when you say you "raise to 20-25 always".. if the table standard open is to 7, and suddenly you open raise to 25, no one is going to call you and youre losing all of your value

jamming is bad because we dont have enough info on V to determine whether he stacks off lighter than QQ or not...

both of these situations are villain and situation dependent

your static play is -EV

There had been a fair amount of limping going on at the table. Two people were opening to $6 and the rest were opening to $10-$12. A raise would usually narrow it down to 2-3 players.


I honestly don't remember the exact way the hand played out but I believe the QTo hand had a few limpers, he raised in CO, other player called OTB as well as one or two others. He Cbet the flop and called the all in after a fairly long time. He said he was pretty sure the other player was on the FD and he was right.

The guy is probably a 2p2'er so maybe he'll see this and chime in

With two limpers I'd raise to $14-16 in a standard 1/2 game.

As played I think there aren't enough information to 4 bet pre and I think our range is too narrow in this spot for a somewhat solid villain to not hand read as such.

However, villain seems to stack off light with TP type hands based on QTo so I'd call pre and reevaluate on the flop.

regardless of table dynamics, you should be opening an amount that will be most profitable and accomplish the reasons we are raising with QQs in the first place.

There are quite a few reasons to raise pre, but in these games the number one reason is for value. since QQs rates to be the strongest hand pre, we should bet an amount that will get called by worse while simultaneously setting up an SPR where we think we can profitably plan to commit on favorable flops when our opponents will routinely stack off with worse.

It is up to you to determine the size of the raise that will best accomplish your goals. It should be dependent on your opponent's stack sizes and their tendencies. with very tight opponents, you want a lower SPR around 3-5. Against looser opponents, you can be willing to stack off with a larger SPR around 6-8.

AP he could easily be 3betting light, especially as it seems he likes to play aggressively ip based on how he played the previous hand. your raise to 10 after two limpers isn't particularly strong and he may be upping his aggression after losing to runner runner trips. I'd flat and be willing to commit if no K or A flops since he is very likely to cbet 100% of the time since most opponents will never check the flop after making a 3bet.

You lose some value when he has a hand like AK or JJs and is willing to get it all in pre, but you miss out on a lot of value if he has a wide range and will fold to a 4bet.

Against a 3-betting range of AK and JJ+ and being OOP against a good opponent I would just fold. He'll have way more information about our hand than we do about his postflop, which allows him to play perfectly, and getting in QQ against that range preflop is just asking for huge variance swings that might or might not be break even EV in the long run. If we know there are some 3-bet bluffs in his range then we shouldn't be folding but without that info I'd prefer to play it safe in this spot.