I find myself in this spot time to time and I think it is a major leak in my game. No clue how to play it.

Villian 1, complete spewtard, he is down ~2K, been raising like an idiot preflop to 30-50 when the table is opening to 15-20. In total gamble mode.

Villian 2, Prob the best player at the table, knows the situtation and definately picks his spots at the right time. Is down ~1250 at this point.

Hero, Super tight, viewed at Weeeeeak, because I really am. Just doubled a couple orbits before after I limp shoved to an aggro 3-better. My AK>AQ.


Hero SB ~700
Villian 1 Mid ~ 600
Villian 2 BTN ~ 800

Villian 1 opens to 25, CO Calls, BTN Calls, Hero Calls with KJ, BB Folds. (105t)

Flop J84

Hero Checks, Villian 1 bets 55, CO Folds, BTN Calls, Hero .............

I think Villian 1 is FOS and really want to Raise here, whats the best way to proceed. ?

check call

check call

check call

no matter what cards come on the turn and river (unless they help us in which case check raise river ldo)

if hes bluffing, let him bluff. if an ace peels off, let him try represent it.

Check/call all the way. Why would you raise if you think you have the better hand? He isn't going to be calling so you don't need to turn your had into a bluff.

Lets look at the math?

Pot($105)

$105 + $55 + $55 = $215 when it gets to you.

KJ is strong but vulnerable. You are going to absolutely hate life if a A or Q hits and you aren't going to be thrilled to see a T or 9 vs 2 villains tbh.

c/r flop, shove turn. Pot is big enough.

we should be fine taking down a $215 pot here, but of course we want more. So don't c/r something ridiculous, c/r to $175-$200. That should get one caller, then shove any turn.

check calling down in this spot flop, turn, and river, is not the way to go imo. Hand is way too vulnerable for that against 2 villains.

But since we are OOP best to just play it fast.
c/r flop to $175-ish, shove turn

Lmao serious? I need you in my game. Call and evaluate his line better ott, hopefully you can catch a heart. The best play is c/c. Especially a 5/5 game.

Hero C/R to $175. Try to get the pot H/U at all costs versus V1.

No, I need you in my game, with you c/c-ing down OOP with vulnerable tpgk hand vs two opponents letting them price there on odds with a pot that is 50% of the effective stacks.

Given the size of the pot, equity hero has, and vulnerability of his hand and the fact he is not heads up but against two V's, easy c/r flop shove turn situation.

on a pretty much drawless flop with just 2 overcards to our pair? you are actually a moron. what, are we going to c/r and have him call us with a8? or do you just want to isolate the part of his range that beats us and fold out the air/overs/gutshots hes going to barrel

Perfect squeeze pre, but may be above your capabilities at this point in time. If not, then squeeze to 125 was optimal.

Now you must check and call and HOPE V1 doesnt shut down bluffs since 3 way action. You wont get paid by V2 and so V1 must bluff or valuecut himself for us to win much here.

Its always tuff when playing OOP, but many times we have to struggle card by card and overcome these tough spots rather than raise it up merely to make the hand easier to play. Our hand by no means has to be good here by a landslide so Im not looking to commit my stack right off. (Not at this point)

I agree with dgiharris here. The KJ has flopped a likely best hand here, but it's quite vulnerable against two players. If he's gonna play it, best to check raise to get one (or both -- and take the money and be happy if you do) player out of there. If they decide to stick around, make them do the worrying.

Check-calling just lets them stick around to possibly draw out, and at a minimum price. Check-calling prolongs the agony of doubt as your decision becomes increasingly difficult as the size of the bets you're calling grows with each street.

NLHE isn't a game for the timid, or timid play, and callers are losers in any form of hold 'em, but especially no-limit. You have to take chances, and you have to make your opponents take chances. If you're beat, you're beat. Reload and move on.

this is actually a lot worse spot than people seem to think... btn COULD have a set or AJ+ and calling down and villain 1 is polarized to air or something he's shoving on i guess AJ+ if you r/r maybe worse but w/e dont think we can call his shove unless its really wide in your opinion... i think i raise/fold here and give up if villain 2 calls and we don't spike a K or J.

i don't think you can c/c down with villain 2 in the hand and i doubt he ever folds vs fish... basically you can be drawing so thin in this position and c/c risks just as much as raising here so its marginal between the two

on second thought i c/r call a jam by villain 1 if villain 2 folds or jam a safe turn if villain 1 flats and villain 2 folds.

Pre flop your call is okay even though you are out of position given the game conditions you described, the odds you are getting etc

however I really like what AintNoLimit suggested at squeezing pre. The reason is, you want to get heads up with this lunatic and you certainly don't want the best player at the table to have position on you. KJhh is fine against this crazys range heads up even out of position. Plus you are taking initiative and control away from him. (Again something you seem to be uncomfortable with).

I'm really torn on the flop. If you raise you are protecting your hand which is probably best at this point, you are going to find out real quick if you are beat by the competent button villian but the downside is that you lose a chance for lunatic to bluff & you could be spewing into a set or another hand you are way behind.

Let's assign some realistic ranges to the button villain's flop call?

+1

Just check/call flop and reassess turn.

Not that easy for spewtard to barrel into 2 players on the turn with worse than 2 pair/

There will be 270 in the pot and villain will have about 400 left so there is still a bit to play for. We might be put to a tough decision, but thats why we have a bankroll so that we can deal with the variance.

Check-raising the flop risks a decent stack for only a modest pot in a way that lets worse hands fold.

LOL, dry board as such, you're only getting called by better hands while folding out a wide range of hands that villain will continue to bet on turn.

I would rather evaluate the turn card and villain's bet size before committing my stack. For example if turn was a 9 or T of hearts, and villain bets in the ballpark of 2/3 pot to PSB, I might then decide to stack off.

Its tough to put Villian 2 on a hand, he plays both ends of the deck and he plays them very well. I thought there is a good chance that he could float and raise the turn regardless if Villian 1 continued (And he would 100% of the time).

I elect to call. (270t)

Turn A (Worst Card in the deck right ?)

I check, Villian 1 bets 55, Villian 2 Raises to 175, Hero ............

V2 could be on a semi bluff with Jx spades, some sort of spades with a pair, or even two pairs such as A8. In fact, floating with Ax is not even necessarily out of question in V2's position. Considering how wide V1 is, Ax does have SD value, and his position has FE value.

It's quite probable that v2 is calling with A8 in these spots, both pre and flop.

As played, this is a fold.

Look kid, given V's description they call w any J and T9 type draws so please put a tampon in your bleeding vajay-jay

If hero calls then the pot is roughly 50% effective stacks.

We are out of position with a big pot relative to effective stacks and even though we are likely best, it is incorrect to c/c down vs. 2 V's while giving odds the whole way.

There are 18 cards we don't want to see here, A, Q, T, 9,8,7 if we have to take this to the river w two villians (assuming they hold one of the aforementioned cards). As of now there is roughly a 75% chance that occurs, hence the c/r.

Pot is big enough that we need to think about denying odds.

Is that too high level of a concept for you? Do you understand the concept of denying odds?. Could you please explain how c/c down to the river denies odds for whatever villians have?

Also, using your logic villians are stupid enough to bet all the way to river with air but not stupid enough to call a c/r w a weak Jack or 8 or a draw?

You can't have it both ways. Either they are stupid or they are not.

In either case, given the size of the pot relative to effective stacks, I still maintain we c/r flop and shove turn . This hand is a good example of how being out of position impacts our decisions.

Or put another way, how often is taking a passive line OOP vs two villians w a TPGK hand for two streets the best line when the SPR is fast approaching 1???

^^^Example of Poker Concepts Gone Wrong. Spr lol

You could have summarized everything above by saying:

I am playing scared poker.

http://www.thepokerbank.com/strategy/general/spr/

YES, everyone on here knows I'm scared money. But just for the hell of it, what in my logic do you disagree with?

Please explain to me how giving odds to two villians with two streets to come is +EV.

Seriously. Blind me with your brilliance or hide your tiny brain behind some name calling and flippant one line responses.

The only c/r strategy I could support would be to c/r shove turn. But many times villians will just check back and see the free river card. Again being OOP HURTS US.

+1

this is something i struggle with ... i want callers when i have a monster when there is a draw out there, but i sometimes think i make the wrong bets.

please extrapolate on your above statement dj.

not to be results oriented but .... c/r on flop would most likely take this fair sized pot or isolate to just vil1 and squeeze vil2 out, then if we dont win it, we have easy choice on turn against a bad player who will very easily continue calling w/ worse as per desc. that sounds good to me.

top pair only oop is a very hard hand to play, especially c/c'ing all the way to the river giving you no clear idea of where you're at, as per desc almost any card in deck is in their range. so you price in both villains, its the turn, they bet, you fold = not great.

lets say turn wasnt an ace. lets say that it was just another mid card. any mid / high card is in both villains ranges. one of them just out drew you. they bet turn / river. you have no idea where you are. there is no a or q out there .... just keep c/c'ing? do you fold?

C/R THE FLOP!!! for gods sake please raise the flop!!!!!!

i dont get how this is not a raise on the flop. and i dont get how betting on the flop is playing scared money. instead of c/c'ing you may as well just fold the best hand on the flop.