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Old 08-24-2010, 05:42 AM   #1
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Getting min raised a ton in live games

At first I just assumed getting min raised means opponent has a monster and wants a call but after playing for a couple weeks I've realized that the majority of the time its some donk or a bad reg raising to "see where they are at" especially on scary boards and folding to min raises has cost me countless buyins. I've thought about posting some HHs but I didn't because they seemed like standard folds to me because a lot of the time I had TP mid kicker or like 99 on a T high flop so I don't remember them all anymore.

Since I usually overbet a lot a min raise seems scary as hell to me, but is it safe to assume that most min raises are bull****? This seems completely opposite from microstakes online.
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Old 08-24-2010, 07:01 AM   #2
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Re: Getting min raised a ton in live games

I think it's very villain dependent and dependent on villains perception of you.
If you overbet a lot as you say and donk bet too much observant players will test you by min raising.
In most cases a min raise on a dry board with a high card often means a set on my experience and a river min raise is generally a very strong hand if not the nuts.
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Old 08-24-2010, 07:29 AM   #3
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Re: Getting min raised a ton in live games

I overbet on the flop because the pot is a bunch of $1 chips but everyone has only $5 chips so even though I'm betting $15 into a $8 pot people just say "its only 3 more chips" and call. I don't actually do it for any real purpose other than I can.

I'm also not talking about river min raises. Obviously those are always the nuts. I'm talking about a reg min raising my flop overbet with KJo on a KQT board in a 9 way hand to "see where he's at" and then showing me the KJ after I fold KT face down as if to reassure me he wasn't bluffing.

You know, stuff like that.
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Old 08-24-2010, 07:51 AM   #4
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Re: Getting min raised a ton in live games

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Originally Posted by s.boxer View Post
I overbet on the flop because the pot is a bunch of $1 chips but everyone has only $5 chips so even though I'm betting $15 into a $8 pot people just say "its only 3 more chips" and call. I don't actually do it for any real purpose other than I can.

I'm also not talking about river min raises. Obviously those are always the nuts. I'm talking about a reg min raising my flop overbet with KJo on a KQT board in a 9 way hand to "see where he's at" and then showing me the KJ after I fold KT face down as if to reassure me he wasn't bluffing.

You know, stuff like that.

Online is different then live in this respect.

A minraise on the flop or turn sometime means exactly what you say it does "raise to see where they are at"

It's typically a one pair type hand with average kicker just as you described. Of course this is all situational / opponent dependent but this raise typically isn't to "build a pot".
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Old 08-24-2010, 09:16 AM   #5
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Re: Getting min raised a ton in live games

While it's always player dependent, online I find minraises ***POSTFLOP*** to almost always be the nuts. They are trying to milk the pot. Contrary to this, at live tables I find that minraises are usually "to see where I'm at". The problem is, even when a fish minraises with like 77 on a AJ8 board and you call or raise him, he still can almost never let it go. They got their answer, someone repopped em 3x. They debate and mumble and play with their cards for a minute straight, and then CALL (insert epic facepalm here).

It seems to hold a somewhat similar result online too. I'll raise these ridiculous donk minbets and theyll just snap anyway with 100% of their range. Ultimately I think fish just really hate folding once they have decided to play a hand, even if it's 67s on a A23r flop. They have already talked themselves into playing the hand and it's pretty difficult to break them of it.

Since you typically only see this behavior with fish, you know the drill, valuetown them with the goods and dont even bother bluffing.
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Old 08-24-2010, 10:41 AM   #6
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Re: Getting min raised a ton in live games

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Originally Posted by mercuryPoison View Post
Online is different then live in this respect.

A minraise on the flop or turn sometime means exactly what you say it does "raise to see where they are at"

It's typically a one pair type hand with average kicker just as you described. Of course this is all situational / opponent dependent but this raise typically isn't to "build a pot".
For me it is very villain dependent.
The first question I ask is how comfortable are they with making bets, handling chips, and knowing the rules. For some bad/inexperienced players, the minraise is simple for them as they know it is what they are allowed to raise.
With old guys/nits, the minraise live for me skews towards the nuts/monster. A lot of these guys are old limit players, and again, they are confortable with that bet and know it will likely get paid off.

For younger players/grinders, the minraise range is a bit wider. They know it can represent the nuts, so they often use it when they have a hand with value that may or may not be ahead, but can make a huge hand on the turn or river.
Example: I have 3-4 on a flop of 633. I bet the flop, and get called by young guy on the button. Turn is a 10. I bet, he minraises. Against an old nit I know I am in trouble, but against this guy x10 is very likely. The hand ends with him showing A-10 on the river. Decent read on my part based on his previous play and with how he was trying to out think everyone and "represent" big hands.
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Old 08-24-2010, 01:02 PM   #7
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Re: Getting min raised a ton in live games

There are different types of min raises:

old man drinking black coffee min raise - these guys never put any additional money in the pot without the nuts. min raise here equals fold because you are up against the absolute nuts and drawing dead.

young hoodie headphone wearing ftp shirt and pokerstars hat min raise - you play online, you know what to do

i have drank 3 whiskeys in the last orbit min raise - omg i gots a pair, I raise! oh wait, bottom pair might not be good, uh how much do I raise? Well he bet 20, I raise it another 20!, then I'll smile smugly like I have the nuts and give em the stink eye.

regular who sometimes has a winning session min raise - omg I flopped top pair, and I got a Ten for a kicker!!! better only min raise and suck em in. (or min raise to "see where I am at") - of course, they got top pair!!! like I said, so when you repop it and they find out "where they are at" they are calling and going to the river because like I said, they got top pair.
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Old 08-24-2010, 01:43 PM   #8
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Re: Getting min raised a ton in live games

From what I've seen a min raise on the flop is generally player and board dependent. For example if I raise pf with QQ and the flop comes 10-7-4 with a flush draw and I bet and a average play minraises this is often a hand like A-10 or K-10.
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Old 08-24-2010, 04:00 PM   #9
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Re: Getting min raised a ton in live games

There is one critical element everyone is missing about minraises; no matter what someone does it for, it is ALWAYS a terrible play. It shows a fundamental lack of understanding drawing+pot odds. Even if you have A2o and the board is KKQQ, you should call a minraise. Given this obvious lack of bet size understanding, you should use this knowledge to your advantage to exploit them for it, namely in the sense of overbetting for value and underbetting for bluffs. They have no clue and are just playing fit/fold poker. If they like their hand they are auto-calling any bet, if they dont like their hand they are practically folding any bet.
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Old 08-24-2010, 04:56 PM   #10
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Re: Getting min raised a ton in live games

Quote:
Originally Posted by javi View Post
There is one critical element everyone is missing about minraises; no matter what someone does it for, it is ALWAYS a terrible play. It shows a fundamental lack of understanding drawing+pot odds. Even if you have A2o and the board is KKQQ, you should call a minraise.
Not if the old man who has been asleep for the past two hours did it.

Yeah, it is a terrible play, he is a terrible player. And he has no fundamental understanding of drawing+pot odds. But when the old man slowly throws his min raise in the pot one chip at a time, he is only doing it with KK on a KKQQ board.
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