1-2 late night
Soft and passive short handed game i was in just broke for the night and im seated at last game running full of regs.
Most of which are pretty solid TAGs except guy directly on my left who is pretty action orientated.. straddles alot makes funny little juice the pot raises to like 5 with like random junk when he usually opens to 10. real wild card preflop but plays decent when money starts going in the middle

its like 4am and everyone has that staying cuz im stuck look, no table talk and no deep stacks lol

Folds around to me in CO with KQ off i open to 7..( standard sizing with tthis dynamic since everyone is on autopilot mode sleeping with eyes open and no1 has mroe then 200bb) the loose guy on the button makes it 17, player in BB flats and he's gonna have a solid range here mostly pairs and suited broadway. at first it felt like a 4bet or fold since button is prob light and TAG in blind will prob just let it go but i didnt want to 4bet fold so i flatted.. we all have about 100bb/200bux

FLOP:KJ10 all diamonds and i have the Q of diamonds with top pair

BB checks and i lead for 35 into 48. i lead for the simple reason that top pairs and combo draws will feel obligated to call when they mightve checked behind and if im behind i likely have plenty of outs..
Button flats and BB makes it 120 leaving himself like 40 behind

I got TPGK w/ a royal draw but it feels like hes repping made hands and combo draws with the A of diamonds. The fact that Action Jackson is behind me kinda made me want to call cuz i think if he has like a dry flush draw or two pair he'll improve my direct calling odds.

anyone folding this 100bb deep?

The problem is preflop. Preflop was not good. Fix preflop.

Any other way I can say it? It's like the first way in which a good player is better than a bad player. Preflop. This hand is a perfect example of how a bad yet inexpensive preflop mistake leads to bad and expensive mistakes later

pretty vague, so what dont open KQ in the CO or dont flat for ten dollars against a looseplayers on the button 3bet getting better than 4 to 1 with decent position and a decent SPR? seems a little weak. u think i shoulda 4bet folded to like 50?

i think my biggest issue was leading not knowing wat i would do if BB came over the top cuz his range will be so polarized in this spot. I woulda fist pump got it in against button w/ my read but BB made things tough

PF isn't a 4bet or fold. It's a fold. You're out of position, and your hand doesn't play well against a 3betting range. I'd be much more comfortable calling with a hand like 78ss, because we can semi-bluff tons of flops that scare overpairs but actually give our hand okay equity.

I'd fold if it was me. Hard to shove for our whole stack with top pair good kicker, when we got 3-bet and the BB called. Odds are we don't have the best hand.

although you are pretty confident you are ahead of the button's range, flatting a 3bet is still the worst option. It leaves him in total control and he is going to be firing on the flop no matter what he has, so the question is are you planning on calling him down 3 streets with king high?

So what do we do? If we were heads up, we can 4bet/fold (re raise him and fold if he raises or jams). This will take the control of the hand right back to us and if he flats, then it puts the pressure on him to continue without a hand instead of us when we continuation bet the flop turn and possibly the river.

with the BB cold calling the 3bet we need to fold. KQo does not play well at all in a multi way pot (not to mention a 3bet milti way pot).

Once BB calls cold---we are done.

I agree that preflop is the problem here.

That said I think with the amount in the pot and the amount we have in, it is tough to throw this away.

People at 1/2 generally don't fast play flopped nuts like this so we're really only worried about aq with ad. I don't seevillain fast playing that either here. I probably get it in. You decided to gamble pre instead of folding or four betting(both lower variance lines imo).

I'm not in this spot a ton, but if I were in it I am getting it in and feeling ok.

What is the BTN 3-betting range? Does he tighten up his range a bunch? Or is he still wide?

BB cold calling PF isn't the big issue. His hand is face up. TT-QQ, and I'm guessing more skewed to TT-JJ which isn't a huge deal. Still, we have to flop two pair plus to continue. However we aren't going to flop gin enough to make up for being dominated by RIO. So fold pre.
Now we are here, we have to fold, one of the two V s have the Ad so really we are drawing thin.

By the way, why are we betting here? We are only getting called by better and this board smashes our opponents' range.

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I would never fold pre in the spot as described. Your ahead of his button range and have position on the blind.

I would consider checking the flop though. If I'm leading on the flop at these stack depths it's with the attention to bet/gii 100% of the time. So considering this, after you bet you gotta call it off.

I'd be pretty happy about getting it in here to. His range is a lot wider than flopped nut flushes and AdKx, the latter likely 4 bets oop against two players and a small button 3 bet a good chunk of the time any way.

Calling raises OOP preflop with KQo very seldom leads to fun times.

That being said, you did it, you flopped TPGK with an open ended straight flush draw..at this point you probly gota get it in...

The reason you fold this pf is contained in the question. Hero has TP and can't be confident that he has the best hand. Unless he flops 2pair or better, he's going to either win a small pot or being outkicked. He's 25:1 against hitting 2pair+. Unless he always has the best hand and gets one person to stack off with worse, it is -EV even in calling a $10 bet.

ANL had it right that as soon as the BB cold calls the 3bet, it is a quick fold. If he hadn't, I'd be looking at 4betting against the loose player.

Others have weighed in on PF, but I'm not sure I agree. 5:1 on my money, if nothing else I don't want to let this guy 3bet me light until 6am in a game full of stuck regs.

Flop is a check. The only reason you would lead this flop is to stack off (which we don't want to do here). Let him act, with BB after him and decide your action accordingly. 17 outs if we think our flush draw is live.

It's refreshing to see that players, even those who post on 2+2, will call KQo in this situation. Good to know the games are still juicy.

I wouldn't be here, but if I were, I'd just gii. What else were you hoping for?

I'd limp preflop and check the flop, as played. Heck, I'd probably check the flop in a limped pot.

I'm not completely against calling the 3bet preflop, but I think that players who have problems folding TPGK should just fold that hand.

I find that in poker we SHOULD sweat the small stuff.

The villain left $40 behind. There was a reason for that. He also did not raise preflop and decides to check raise instead of lead postflop.

(All signs of nutted hands)

When you must hit to win and often times you will lose when you do hit anyhow, then its a fold unless you are getting a whopping price.

I fold.




Note: So many players will say ---cooler----get it in----whatever.

I get a nice reciprocal edge by not following the crowd on hands just like these. Its exactly how I define the difference between very good players and the best players. The best players find reciprocal edges against the good players.

I don't say gii now and if you lose it's a cooler, I say gii now because you played the hand the way you did and what more could you ask for I would never have to make this decision.

why is that the deciding factor he can pretty much never have AA or KK after flatting OOP and given his TAGY tendencies im prettys sure AK woulda been a 4bet as well. I think under different circumstances folding pre is wise but im hardly ever gonna be dominated in this spot by the loose button 3bet and a TAG flatting from blind.

pretty shocked how many people think its a fold pre given this table dynamic and our decent position, but u guys are right it woulda helped avoid this spot. is it still a fold pre with AK or AQ ?? imo those hands are very similiar in strength to KQ agaisnt these V's ranges.

i ended up calling, button folded and BB had AJ with A of diamonds for bottom pair W/ royal draw and he got there.

I think i coulda/shoulda gotten away from this hand since BB is repping nothing but made hands (sets or better) and combo draws with the A of diamonds. against that range im hardly ahead and the few times I am in the lead, like this one, he's got plentty of equity

Not a fold with AK (I'd re-raise) and maybe a call with AQ (I'd consider folding or re-raising). KQ is nowhere close. Much more easily dominated (you thought this guy had a pp or suited broadway) -- as seen in this hand. You hit almost as good as you could have (to get money from anyone else) and you still lost. The only redeeming factor is that you happened to be ahead on the flop.

You were 56% to win on the flop (1% chance of a tie), so I wouldn't conclude that you should have folded. With all of the dead money in the pot you absolutely made the right call.

I am never folding on this flop. Ever. The only hand that absolute crushes me is A9 but I even have runner runner outs against that hand. Other bad hands are Ax diamonds. But even against AA, KK and AK we have at least 25% equity if they have the A and 54% equity if they don't. We are getting 2-1 on our money with around 50% equity against BB's range.

There are no realistic weaker top pairs in Villains' ranges. Nor combo draws either, unless we're considering Ad, and any realistic Ad hand is doing just fine here against us. Any caller we get will have plenty of equity in the pot.

btw, solid TAGs do not cold call 3bets from the blinds with AJ. That's all kinds of terrible and not TAG at all.

OP you sound way too competent to be playing 1/2 live, just saying

tough spot/hand all around, I don't think it's clear at any point and definitely interesting but there is something to be said for deferring to in-game judgements and since OP appears to be at least somewhat decent at poker from his posts ITT so far, I vote NH

[QUOTE=EyeSmoke1;45585065]why is that the deciding factor he can pretty much never have AA or KK after flatting OOP and given his TAGY tendencies im prettys sure AK woulda been a 4bet as well. I think under different circumstances folding pre is wise but im hardly ever gonna be dominated in this spot by the loose button 3bet and a TAG flatting from blind.




I myself dont play pots as optimistically. Meaning...
Hoping Im not dominated
Hoping I can hit the flop
Hoping BTN is light and will shut down
Hoping the BTN doesnt 4 bet
On and on

You miss the flop 2/3 the time. You are sandwiched between a lag and a cold 3 bet calling TAG. You have KQ which is really a pig with lipstick and a suit.

How can this be anything but a fold here? The TAG range should have you smoked and I see very little that could happen good for us ---other than get lucky and flop a pair (which nobody else has) and get it cheaply to the river.

[QUOTE=AintNoLimit;45590669] I disagree and I think this isn't a clear cut spot either way at all. I do not think KQ is dominated by either players range right now. Poker is tough, I mean sure it's easy to just fold to save yourself the headache and calling is obv marginal, but marginal can still be profitable. This hand was played at 6am full of stuck regs, I hardly think we are behind enough of the time to just fold right now getting 4-1 or whatever it is.

This is an interesting hand, personally I think I go for c/r/gii

[QUOTE=oh-nahhh;45591730] I'd like to see you do your own work on this one. KQo is crushed by their combined ranges. It's not even doing very well against their individual ranges.