you have kk

you have <200bbs eff stacks

get it aipf if you can; that is your job with kk.

don't over think it, just do it.

raise/folding KK is fairly criminal

I thought the same thing. This is a dumb thread. Until I saw a player lay down KK face up preflop twice in one hour yesterday. The first time player made it $35, nit villain raised to $450. Second time player made it $35, villian2 (who saw hand one) made it $70. Both villains showed AA.

I agree with the first fold. The second fold I think I am at least calling the min raise to see a flop, but probably jamming.

This happened at the Horseshoe Hammond also. Wonder if it's the same player.

man you could have made alot of money in 45min

Hand 2 is a snap fold, unless that old guy knows that you know that he will only shove pre that deep with AA, therefore taking advantage of his nitty image and stealing a pot from you. But that's probably way above his level, so the most likely scenario is that he woke up to AA and you made a great lay down.

Hand 1 is slightly troubling though. If the young grinder you speak of is such a solid player when he sees that the nit opens UTG and sees you raise then he would already assume that the nit has AT LEAST QQ, so if he has AA, why in the world would he want to chase the nit out of the pot? If he has AA in that spot, I think he flats your raise and hopes that the nit comes along. That 4 bet smells like a squeeze to me and I think you made an incorrect fold in that hand. If you 5 bet shove there, he probably folds or if he feels like gambling he may call with a hand like AKs. He did not have AA though....and if he did have AA there then he is not a "solid grinder" like you said he was.

I'm with other than Hand 2 is a fold. Let's not call it easy -- folding KK is never easy. But I think it's the correct play given that you so very likely not to have any more than 20% equity and it's $525 to you (unless you have a smaller stack than villain).

Hand 1 -- crazy idea: anyone up for a call preflop if we know for sure that villain's range is AA/KK/QQ? We're even with that range but if we re-pop, we know he might re-pop with part of it and we don't like that. Calling lets us play post-flop poker, where we likely have an edge. You have to underplay it for sure (it almost turns into like TT or 99), but might be the most EV play? (Just a thought.)

For value. If u put him on QQ-AA, you are only behind 33 percent of his range. Hope its qq or kk. If I know I have same hand as villian I'll always bet. Fold equity is ur friend.

Wait, so you're 3betting in hops of folding out KK (and QQ by induction)? Or is this some sort of fancy two way raise where KK folds but QQ calls? Why? What good does that do us?

Edit:
Hand 0: 49.995% { KK }
Hand 1: 50.005% { QQ+ }

Hand 0: 49.994% { KK }
Hand 1: 50.006% { AA, QQ }

Please explain what difference folding out KK makes? Why risk folding out QQ?

Hand 1 is not a fold at all.

Hand 2 is perfectly fine. Villain isn't cold 4betting QQ there if your description is accurate.

Players tend to have a wide calling range, but a very narrow 4-bet range. If the villian opens UTG with TT+, AK, I would expect him to call the 3bet with TT-QQ, AK and 4bet AA/KK (though KK only some of the time). So we are 3betting for value vs his calling range.
We also iso the villian. Last thing I want is playing KK oop in a 6-way pot. We would essentially be setmining with 2nd toppest pair.

First, I know why you and I 3bet with KK here, but I am more intrigued by Money4Bacon's motivation for 3betting.

Second, as per the OP, UTG's opening range is QQ-AA only. He doesn't have TT, JJ, or AK to call our 3 bet with.

Grinch, hand 2 if u put in one third of yr stack, folding is not good IMO

I 3 bet for that reason. I would expect qq to come along and expect anything better to 4 bet. If he 4 bets then I'm assuming its kk or aa, which I guess is a tough fold spot. Keep the lessons coming though I'm learning.

Looks like the biggest nit on the table is payoffwizard and not the others.

hand 1 is a fist pump shove IMO

IMO his range is AK, QQ+

stuff it in

hand 2 is a fold, he has AA 95% of the time and the other 2 kings 5%

hand 1 is a snap shove vs a non nit for 100 bbs

No you idiot I play LAG. Making a big laydown does not make someone a nit.

Good job going 2 months back and finding this thread only to make that statement, cool life.