$1/$2 NL Live

V1: Tight Passive. Doesn't get into a lot of pots and when he does he usually has top tier hand or might limp and play safe with a smaller pocket pair. Young white guy but seems scared to gamble.

V2: Tight (semi- Agg.) older Asian guy who limps now and again - probaby set mining.

V3: new to table.

Hero: regular. Been playing aggressive and a touch on loose side.

Effective stack is V!'s at $185.

V2 limps UTG. V1 raises UTG+2 for $8. V3 calls. Hero in BB with JJ just calls.

POT= about $30

FLOP: J93

Hero checks. V2 checks. V1 (Tight Passive guy) bets $30. V3 folds. Hero calls. V2 folds - its heads up.

POT= about $90

Turn: A
Hero checks. V1 checks...

River: Q
Hero bets $45...V1 thinks for about a minute and pushes AI for $100 more.

POT= $280.

My questions:
Does he always have QQQ here or AAA?
Can we even think about making this fold?
Can we even think about NOT making this fold?
Did I make a mistake(s) earlier by slow playing this hand?
Is this a straight forward potential cooler hand depending on what he has?

If you are loose and V knows this, then you should min-raise the Flop so you can lead gii on the Turn. Or you need to lead Turn into V, he may think you are using the Ace as a scare card. I dont really like the A here ... overcard/flush draw, but we have to deal with it. I would go for the delayed donk bet of $40 AP.

You cant let the this Turn go by without a bet since passive ppl dont bet, they call when the board gets messier.

AP he has no clue you have a set, but you could be beat. Call it off with fingers crossed .. you already know it's very unlikely he has a straight or your image of him is wrong .. QQ fits the bill more than AA. Cooler? GL

When we have a big hand we should play big pots.

When we have a big hand we should not let longshot draws get free cards.

(When a Villain bets and we just call, since his bet is already in the pot, calling actually gives a free card.)

I once slowplayed QQ vs (unbeknownst to me) 99 when I was in position.

500bb deep.

Flop came Q93 rainbow.

He checked.

I checked, "for deception".

Had I simply C-bet, it all would have gone it on the flop.

Turn was a J, now I am unduly afraid of a straight.

My hand was good for 80 more BB's, and not the 500 BB's I could have had.

I will never slow play top set again, no matter what.

GII and there is no longer such a thing as a scare card.

If we get it in with the best of it, and thereafter get sucked out, GG him.

But we ought not to let it happen cheaply or for free.

IMO.

You can only fold this if you have a very very good read on villain. How long have you been playing with him? Is he capable of c-betting a hand like AK or AQ after missing the flop? Could he have bet pre-flop with AJ or 99? Does he ever raise with less than the nuts or the near nuts? If you haven't been playing with him long enough to know the answers to these questions, I don't think you can be confident enough in your read to fold here despite your "tight passive" read. But if this is a guy you have been playing with all day and you really feel like he is an open book to you such that you can narrow his range to exactly AA or QQ (if he is raising pre-flop with K10, then your read on him is just wrong), then a fold here is reasonable.

I'm never folding here, even if we were slightly deeper I'm not folding. AQ,AJ,QJ,Q9 might make this play. When he checks turn it looks like he's on a draw, probably T8, maybe some sort of flush redraw. I think he has enough 2 pair hands in his range to make this an incredibly easy call.

I don't like the way you played the hand at all though. 3-bet pre always if we have a loose image. 18-28. If we just call for some reason and do flop gin, we need to either check-raise or just donk into the pot immediately. We should be getting stacks in by the turn.

Maybe start by betting at some point before the river...also 3b pre

3b pre is debatable. But definitely either lead the flop or c/r the flop. I personally like leading the flop as you are more likely to get V1 or V3 to come along, you might get a call from V1 then a raise from V2. More importantly, you might get a raise from V2 that makes the pot so big that either he calls your all-in or you win a ton even if he folds.

For whatever reason, villains never put you on the nuts when you donk out and lead out flops that were raised pre-flop.

On the river you are calling $100 to win $280. I snap call as I think Villain can push here with two pair. He might have a straight, but the most likely hand is AJ. If I had AJ, this is exactly how I would have played if I were Villain.

If I had AA or QQ there is no way I'm checking behind on the turn.

Meh, QQ makes a lot of sense given V description.

Still if he only raises with the nuts his line doesn't make sense. He can't have KT, but YOU could have it(tight passive; he is afraid), yet he still raises(fearless river raise)? Wtfff. I'd try to use this opportunity to get a live tell on him and then I'd call even if I'm beat.

You could just fold, I wouldn't blame you for it.

I think checking turn is the worst decision to me. Just bet and play for stacks. You can bet $50 on turn and $100 on river to get it all in.

The problem with the river decision is you should never have to make it; you should have been all in already.

Because of this line you took you are in a spot of not knowing what to do.

Calling- meh
Folding- meh

In this particular situation I can find a fold AP. From my experience scared money going in on the river is very damn near nuts.

Preflop - You calling JJ OOP like this basically says to me your plan is to just setmine. With Multiple players left to act it is rather unlikely they will fold. Which even on a T high board you will be thinking of what to do. And once again be in an unclear spot.

As we have an image I think a raise here accomplishes a few things: It lessens the field and It narrows V1"s range. This in turn gives us the confidence to know what to do.

But as I like to mix up my play quite a bit I would say a small % of the time I can just call this and go to flop with 3 other players.

Flop- Now we have the nuts but are OOP and dont know how to extract value, whatever you do its gonna make alarm bells go off in your opponents because your hand is so underrepped and the board is just to dry.
Check-calling this is burning money.

When you quickly check, and PFraiser cbets into multiple players its highly unlikely he is doing that with garbage as his image and playing style describes. So, check-raising here should have been done minimally to atleast try to get money in the pot. Donking this would be my most frequent play as your image also totally fits the bill. It screams out that you are not that strong and at the same time induce a raise from V1 value range.

I will describe this in the most simple way possible:
Be the aggressor in hands where you have to lead them into handing their money over to you with their weaker holdings.

I have played live as an only source of income for 2.5 years and one of the most fundamental things you should grasp is having a plan thats versatile as in knowing what reaction to give to any action or vice versa.

You are playing this game not just for the fun of it but actually make money doing it. Dont let other players decide how much to give you, You Decide.

You need better reads, does this villain c-bet with air? Is he going to slow play when he turns a set of aces or will he always value bet his made hands?

Even though he is tight passive pre he may think two pair is the nuts.

Could he ever play AJ or AQ like this?

If not you do not really beat anything and should fold imo.

I am LOL. Yes. Folding is beyond gross here.

The preflop call isn't bad, not sure what a tight passive calls with that is worse then JJ, maybe AK... And obviously you fold if he 4bets.

Playing JJ and folding to aggression when we don't flop a set agaisn't someone who seems like a nit/tight passive is pretty much optimal.

As played I just shove the flop, donk/shove would of been perfect, chk/shove is good. He's not cbetting AK into 4 people and he's not folding any value hand, just stuff it in.

raise flop imo

as played oh man based on description i doubt he c-bets AQ or AK here, right?

if so it's hard to put him on anything other than AAA or QQQ... can't see him turning KK into a bluff if he's scared to gamble.

although we do have a set and that's really hard to get and beat... i think finding a fold here is an excellent move, it just seems so hard for him to be bluffing here. i'm not sure i could do it though.

You are really asking the wrong question about this hand.What is going on here? I have three big value mistakes in this hand and the river is a sigh call. But if you are posting here to improve I think your question should be--- How did I manage to flop top set with JJ --- get bet in to by a tight passive player OTF and manage to only have a small pot built by the river? If you cant answer that question you are going to have a hard time beating even the worst games.

Bet your damn hand

Never say never/always in poker (unless you have no desire to actually think about poker or improve at it and are happy OMCing it up). This is a poor thought process stemming from results-oriented thinking. There are certainly times slowplaying top set is the best play (not ITT, but against different opponents on certain boards). Just because it was not the optimal play in one hand against one opponent's holding (we should be considering the optimal play against his entire range anyway) doesn't mean it's never a good play.

Thanks for the replies.
Yah this hand I played a little too, I don't even know the word. Here was my thoguht process...

After V1 raised I seriously put him on QQ, KK,AA, AQs+, AK

I actually paused a second longer than I wanted to pre-flop because my reflex was to 3 bet immediately but against this guy, he is NOT folding at best I am a coin flip with him...so I elected to set mine.

Then I hit that set I was mining for...and my brain said "hmm...maybe this Asian guy will bet (he was somewhat scrappy) and the V1 calls or raises and I get it in here or at least get a big pot on and GII on the turn. The Asian guy DID NOT bet. V1 pops the $30 and I want V2 in. I also DO NOT want to scare V1 out as he did play somewhat timid. I called with intention of getting this going on the turn...

the Ace hits...I think "ok I assume he bets again and I give him the bad news. THERE WAS MY MISTAKE. I actually did not think this guy would c-bet without a made hand but did not consider this. As a result, I could have taken AQ and AK out of his range on the flop after he c-bet it. I could have limitied him to AA, KK, QQ. So he really could either have hit his set here or he is probably not going to bet. He checks and I cuss myself out in my mmind because I realize I should not have got fancy on this hand. The Q hits..my mind is a bit frazzled because I made some assumptions that the V's would behave a certain way and they did not and my plan was foiled. At this point I think I mentally let down and was just thinking, I am likely good...I have a set. Once I bet the $45 aqnd he pushed it was just a matter of "ugh...I played this one bad. i am getting 2.8 to 1 though...maybe I made a mistake somehwere along here and read this V wrong, I guess I have to call..."

I called and he shows


In hindsight, and after studying your replies, I actually like pushing the flop here. Or at least donking a fat sum on the flop. He tanks and probably gets it in or at least calls.

CURIOUS HYPOTHETICAL:
if I played it like that...lets say i bet $50 on flop and he calls. And the Ace hits on the turn...do we bet again? Or is slow play prudent here? Because if we bet here and has QQ or KK he is folding for sure and probably going home. But if he does have AK we get value...thoughts?

Definetly like a flop raise, All overpairs are paying off.

On river something to consider is that you've severely underepped you hand so V could be valuebetting worse

There are more combos of AK then QQ/KK althugh I don't know how often hes going to float this flop bet with AK

A is just kind of a crummy card which is why I like the flop bet/raise to get value from QQ/KK/AA before a card like this comes on the turn and either kills your hand or kills your action.

There's no way he would call an overbet on the flop with AK. So, the only hands that will put significant money in on the turn are AA and AJ. That would be a very tough spot because he might play those hands the same way. I might bet 25-30 to try to squeeze a little value out of KK and QQ with the plan to get it in if raised and shove the river if flat-called. But the A is a really gross card, so no option is really 'good' :/

Also, regarding trying to keep V2 in on the flop: if his limps usually indicate small pairs, then either he's folding his underpair or calling/raising with a set. And if he could have a weak J he might also have QT (or KQ), so I'm def check-raising there since getting max value from V1 should be your main focus anyway.

I feel you missed out on value on the hand. When a tight passive player bets into you on the FLOP... raise for value. You have top set.
If he was a TAG or LAG player then sometimes its ok to just call the flop.
I feel he often has QQ,AA,AJ here. Sometimes even 99.
This is up to you. I would just sigh call the river. sometimes your good, sometimes your not.

preflop - 3 bet, i hate to be oop postflop in a multi way pot with jj, you may as well have 33/44 here if you are just going to flat.

as played, on the flop i would check min reraise and gii on the turn.

you have way under repped your hand throughout the entire process, i am not folding here for that fact alone.

what does baffle me is you perceive yourself as an aggressive regular that is a bit on the loose side, shouldn't you be leveraging your perceived image to exact the most value out of this hand? by taking the line you took, you win the minimum when you are good and you lose the maximum when you are beat, i just don't get it.

You may aswell have 33-44 when you 3bet because he doesn't call with worse.

If your not raising the flop (or donk bet/3bet), which I would be because there are enough draws present that he can make a major mistake w/ an over pair, or bluff raise, bluff catch, semi bluff, (basically every way possible for him to put $ in behind) then you should donk the turn.

If the Ace gives him 2 pair, he's raising. If he has Ax, he's always calling, maybe raising, and with QQ-KK he likely calls one bet. Draws aren't folding ever. His flopped monsters, 2p+ are always going to raise. You need to get value now. You didn't start building a pot on the flop so it is now mandatory that money gets in.

PP's are checking behind. there are now a ton of hands that picked up a draw that will call a bet but often will check behind and take a free card. Risking the turn checking through is something that can't happen.

I don't like check/calling the flop at all, but to then let the turn check through is as bad as it gets. This hand was massively butchered.

as played, your severely under repped, you have to call. In the future think about what your trying to accomplish when you flop top set (the nuts) get as much money in the pot as possible. A check/call check line is not the way to go about it.