This is not true. KK is not vulnerable to a large field. I believe it has more equity in large fields than any other hand except AA. For example, against 4 25% ranges, KK has 45%(!!) equity (and against a players calling with 25% ranges, you will only get 4 callers about 10% of the time, so that's conservative). There's big value in getting a large raise called 4 places by weak hands (in this example, almost $20 of profit if you go by hot and cold equity). Moreover, we go to the flop with a pretty low SPR, and you can safely assume that people who are calling raises with a 25% range are not doing so planning to lay down top pair if they flop it, so our postflop picture looks rosy too. As long as we don't stack off every time we lose, this hand plays just fine 5-way. The only question should be whether we can continue to collect very loose calls by raising a little more and make more money that way.

I understand what you are saying here. I suppose it comes down to the strength of your postflop play and hand reading ability. When I get 5 callers with KK, I'm very nervous. It's common that you will no longer have the best hand on the flop when your opponents nail the random flopped straight, 2 pair, etc. This is the problem that plagues PPPs in limit games. I know almost for certain where I'm at preflop (way ahead) but I don't know where I'm at any more on the flop against this many people, and it can get expensive to find out. I agree that you have the most equity out of the people that called, but that's not going to translate directly into profit due to the complexity of postflop action. In my experience, it's a situation where you only get action if you're behind because everyone knows what they're trying to hit in a multiway pot: something that beats top pair. So you trivially win small pots but lose most pots that grow to any size. Maybe that's just my room.

This

The point is that calling with bad cards hoping to outflop KK 100BBs deep (or, as in this hand, 63 BBs deep) is a TERRIBLE strategy that loses money like crazy. Outflopping KK with unpaired cards is incredibly unlikely. If your opponents are playing the way you describe, you desperately want them to call, because they have far less equity in the hand than hot and cold numbers would indicate, since they will fold the flop almost all the time. In reality, they are probably peeling with a lot of hands they shouldn't because they'll put you on AK and maybe because they will pretend they have pot odds.

Lol @ folding

After 2 limpers, there is no way a $17 raise is going to thin the field at my table, and I see it's the same at yours as well. I'd easily go $20/$25+ at this point depending on how loose the table is (and considering we just went 6ways, lol, it sounds pretty loose).

I think our bet size is horrible on the flop. We just gave 4:1 for anyone of 5 opponents to chase a draw on this very drawy board (albeit we do have counterfeiting outs). Here's a rule I go by at these stakes: no one ever folds a draw on the flop. No one. Ever. To *almost* any bet size (I mean, if we bet 2x pot, then there's a decent chance the draw will fold, but otherwise, no draw is folding). So I pot the flop ($90) and get the rest in on any turn. Expecting someone to spazz in an eleventeen way pot is pretty optimistic.

If we had of committed (like we should have) on the flop, then turn would be a trivial call. But now we've left ourselves in quite a spot. Does he have AK with a heart? QJ with a heart? Just AK? Middle/bottom set? Or a flush? Or did he misread his hand? I probably sigh shove, hope I'm ahead, and plan on sucking out if not. But hand is so much simpler (and profitable) if we simply made the proper bet on the flop.

GimoG

If we got in all our money preflop, the more multiway we go the more awesome it is. The problem is that all our money isn't going in preflop; the deeper and more multiway we go, the more this becomes a problem, especially when we're flying blind while a lot of other hands know exactly where they are.

In this particular case, the Villain got implied odds of 11:1 against us, plus had the overlay of 4 other callers, plus some implied odds against those players as well. He was getting at least 15:1 implied odds preflop, so it's not as if seeing a flop with a speculative hand was a horrendous mistake. I have no idea what the effective stacks are against other players, they might be getting even juicer implied odds.

The comment regarding "as long as we don't always stack off against 5 players" is kinda lol, imo. The SPR in these multiway cases is going to be extremely low most times (typically <=5, in this particular case a rather lol 2). We've *almost* handcuffed ourselves to stack off unless incredibly crazy multiway action breaks out, especially if we expect TP to stack off against us.

The point about villains not folding TP postflop is a good one. This is our one saving grace in spots like this, in that while we can make huge mistakes here (i.e. paying of the flopped set), it's also the case that TP is typically always going to make a mistake against us.

Still, in the end, I feel it is much more profitable attempting to setup a HU pot. If we hadda raised to $30 and got just the one caller, we get him to put in a lol 17% of their stack preflop (i.e. absolutely never profitable), and setup a similar SPR postflop (where it's just as trivial to get in stacks). It's a far more profitable route, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG

There is a fine line though. Raise a little too much of and everyone fold and you pick up less than $10. We have the second best starting hand and our opponents pay horribly. Raising too much and getting no action is far worse than raising a few bucks short and getting 5 callers. It is a fine line too. Sometimes (in $1/2 ) opening $12 UTG is getting called 5ways but $15 is probably folding everyone unless they have a premium hand. I play a super deep game BTW.

I'm not sure about "far more profitable". Yes getting headz up we will win more frequently but often we will be winning $30. And with a much higher frequency than with the smaller pf raise we will get no action. It's obviously not linear and is table defendant but IMO the overall profitability is probably much closer.


cAhatesnotgettingactiononhispremiumsAm

I totally agree it is a fine line. And sometimes it might even come down to whether the first guy in the chain calls. And if everyone has a pocket pair, well, it doesn't matter how much we raise it.

But while the line is fine, we can at least *attempt* to get the desired result based on our experience at the table (that is, if the desired result is HU, which I acknowledge isn't everyone's desired result). My guess is that it was unlikely that a $17 raise after 2 limpers had much of a chance at narrowing the field at this table, but perhaps this hand was an anomaly.

Super deep games might be a totally different kettle of fish.

Gkettleoffish,I'mfromthe1930'sapparentlyG

It's not necessarily about winning more frequently. It's also about not getting ourselves into spots where we can make huge mistakes. Getting in 17% of the chips preflop HU we setup ourselves up for awesome straightforward spots; getting in 9% (in this case, although often we get in far far less) in a very multiway doesn't setup ourselves up for nearly as awesome a spot, imo (and can leave us in a very tricky situation).

I realize it's a fine line. We don't want to just take down the blinds with our premium pairs.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Not offense intended, at all, please, but based in this comment and others in different places over here, you have trouble folding hands. Some will call this a textbook calling station. Again, apologies if this offended you. Just pointing out something that might cause you problems in your game.

spot would be way more interesting deep, but with effective stacks only 63 bb's i mean its whatever. i probably never fold real time and curse myself in my head for playing the hand this way.

Funny part of this logic is that we would be more than willing to play with 9% of money while holding 88 or flopping TPGK, but have so much more issue while holding KK.

Issue is between two ears, not so much anything else IMO.

Agreed that flop bet is way too small.

As played, I think this *should* be a fold. But in-game, I probably stare him down, zoom in on some little tic, and talk myself into believing it means he can totally have a smaller set or two pair right now.

If you make it $20 pre then $75 on the flop you will get correct odds on the turn.

Betting $30 into $90 on a board this wet is really bad honestly, if someone's calling $30 they're calling $70 with the same hands most of the time.

No offense taken. Frequently I am a station.

There is a good reason. Let's only consider this hand. What is V's range?

1) Just the flush. Hero has 10 outs, and has 23% equity. H needs 29% equity to call correctly. So V needs to be spazzing out with something just 6% of the time, 1 in 17, for the call to be correct. I guarantee you that V can be spazzing out here 6% of the time and show up with AX:x (or something else ******ed).

2) Suppose we give V the flush plus just 1 combo of AhAx. Depending on how many combos we give V, Hero's equity may dramatically improve. Since V is in the SB, maybe he only plays the -Broadways? Well, Hero now has 30% equity.

Board: Kh Tc 6h 4h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 29.545% 29.55% 00.00% 91 0.00 { KcKs }
Hand 1: 70.455% 70.45% 00.00% 217 0.00 { AhAs, AhKh, AhQh, AhJh, AhTh, KhQh, KhJh, KhTh, QhJh, QhTh, JhTh }

You can see that it does not take any questionable assumptions to make this call correct.

In reality, LLSNL villains will be capable of spazzing out more then 1 time in 17. More like 1 time in 8. This gives you like 12-13% equity in all pots (when you have a strong made hand). With this in mind, it is usually a huge mistake to fold any set, much less top set.

Such a good point, seems obvious now, but this explanation provided some real clarity for me. I was looking only at the turn as a +EV or -EV spot. Didn't factor in that V will have already made two -EV bets by the time the turn spot came around. Thanks for this response.

K was a mate, as was the T. Again, same as above post, this offered some clarity, bet sizing clearly wrong on the flop.

Super helpful ^ thanks.

+1 ^

+1 bigger sizing makes this hand a no brainer.

+1

+1

Yeah, I think so short, probably should have made a crying call. Then again, that's being results orientated I'm sure.

In the end V wasn't bluffing and he showed what he believed to be the best hand. Unfortunately it was TT for middle set. As played, V dependant, I really didn't see him having anything else other than a flush. Smaller sets while possible, didn't seem logical to me. Funnily, I would have been more inclined to call with a set of ten's. The reason is this V is the type to stack off with TPTK type hands, I really covered those combo's though in this hand. He is rare to come firing into me with a hand like that too though, more a c/call type guy, but stack off.

In the end the huge leak here was my sizing otf, that we can all agree on. If I bet a proper amount, I'm sure he c/r the flop and we gii. In the end the small sizing he just decided to call to keep me along? Then jammed when heart came haha. It was a battle or who played it worse and in the end it was me.

Thanks for all the responses, some really good stuff.

Cheers Mac

Just on deeper spot, I'd usually create a new thread for this. But had a very similar spot come up just two nights ago, this time deeper.

Same game $2/$3 Hero with $625 holding QJo.

V - Covers all stacks - Young, unknown, haven't seen any holdings yet apart from AK on KKx board. Seems to have some idea at this stage, but playing pretty snug, nothing strange seen.

Pick up the action on the flop, 5 ways to flop for $15 pre.

(Pot $75) - QJx checks around (including PFA) to hero IP who bets $60, folds to opp who is immediately on my right and he announces call in fairly standard time, not super quick call, not tank, just normal timing.

(Pot $195) - Turn 2, V donk leads $120, hero?

Cheers Mac

Most aspects of the hand have been covered pretty well here, but I just wanted to throw this in: I am not folding here.

For starters, let's look at our equity against a villains range that consists of only flushes. I have intentionally made this range very wide to include more flush combinations for later. Additionally the villain was in the small blind after several callers already so he could be getting in there pretty wide. But, not too many people are going to call $17 preflop with worse than what I've included here.
____________

Board: Kh Th 4d 6h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 22.321% 22.32% 00.00% 275 0.00 { KcKs }
Hand 1: 77.679% 77.68% 00.00% 957 0.00 { AhQh, AhJh, Ah9h, Ah8h, Ah7h, Ah5h, Ah4h, Ah3h, Ah2h, QhJh, Qh9h, Qh8h, Qh7h, Jh9h, Jh8h, Jh7h, 9h8h, 9h7h, 8h7h, 8h5h, 7h5h, 7h4h, 5h4h, 5h3h, 5h2h, 4h3h, 4h2h, 3h2h }

So we have 22.32% equity against only flushes which means we need pretty much exactly 3.5/1 to call. We're getting 2.9/1 (let's be real, there's no way that last $40 isn't going in on the river no matter what the card is.)
____________

However, let's look at the equity if we add ONLY the other two flopped sets into his range.

Board: Kh Th 4d 6h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 34.425% 34.43% 00.00% 515 0.00 { KcKs }
Hand 1: 65.575% 65.57% 00.00% 981 0.00 { TT, 44, AhQh, AhJh, Ah9h, Ah8h, Ah7h, Ah5h, Ah4h, Ah3h, Ah2h, QhJh, Qh9h, Qh8h, Qh7h, Jh9h, Jh8h, Jh7h, 9h8h, 9h7h, 8h7h, 8h5h, 7h5h, 7h4h, 5h4h, 5h3h, 5h2h, 4h3h, 4h2h, 3h2h }

Against this range we only need 1.9/1 to call.
____________

Now if we instead add ONLY QJ with a into his range.

Board: Kh Th 4d 6h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 30.414% 30.41% 00.00% 455 0.00 { KcKs }
Hand 1: 69.586% 69.59% 00.00% 1041 0.00 { AhQh, AhJh, Ah9h, Ah8h, Ah7h, Ah5h, Ah4h, Ah3h, Ah2h, QhJh, Qh9h, Qh8h, Qh7h, Jh9h, Jh8h, Jh7h, 9h8h, 9h7h, 8h7h, 8h5h, 7h5h, 7h4h, 5h4h, 5h3h, 5h2h, 4h3h, 4h2h, 3h2h, QcJh, QdJh, QhJc, QhJd, QhJs, QsJh }

Now we only need 2.3/1 to call.
____________

Now if we add ONLY AKx and KQx in.

Board: Kh Th 4d 6h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 26.288% 26.29% 00.00% 347 0.00 { KcKs }
Hand 1: 73.712% 73.71% 00.00% 973 0.00 { AhQh, AhJh, Ah9h, Ah8h, Ah7h, Ah5h, Ah4h, Ah3h, Ah2h, QhJh, Qh9h, Qh8h, Qh7h, Jh9h, Jh8h, Jh7h, 9h8h, 9h7h, 8h7h, 8h5h, 7h5h, 7h4h, 5h4h, 5h3h, 5h2h, 4h3h, 4h2h, 3h2h, AhKc, AhKd, AhKs, KcQh, KdQh, KsQh }

Now we need 2.8/1, which we can still call. And all of this is using a very wide range of possible flushes for villain. If we think he wouldn't shove the turn with the nut flush, or if we think he might not get in there preflop with 52s, then our calling odds get better and better.
____________

My point is we can only fold this if we think villain literally has ONLY flushes and never any other hands at all. If we can include even a few combinations of other hands in his range (and there are no 2/3 villains that can't AT LEAST have sets here) then calling is correct.

All been covered above. In short, I was calculating against only flushes. Which quite frankly, was all I thought he had the way the hand played out. But yes against wider range, less price needed.

Cheers Mac

Folding here is a clear mistake.

If you shove, you're getting > 2:1 (we pretend V shoved 140 and calculate the odds).

You could have the best hand or you could boat / quad up with 10 outs. Your own hand equity against flushes exactly gets you around 20% of the approximately 30% required equity. The possibility you already have the best way clearly makes up for the delta. It might not exceed the 10% by very much... but it's definitely more than sufficient.

When you start the hand with 63BB, it'll be a pretty bizarre scenario where you fold top set on the turn. This is not one of those scenarios.

Yeah shoulda bet more....good fold

:grunch:

Fine Pre.

Bet more on the flop for the love of god. Yea yea, we have top set. But the pot is big and donks love their suited connectors. Make a FD or broadway straight draws pay. A spaz will still spaz if you bet larger. Don't ship obviously, but $50 or so while *looking* somewhat hesitant/scared ought to do it.

OTT ... eh. He's repping a flush pretty hard. Old reg with the given read I tend to believe here. Fold and be happy that you ****ed up the flop and bet so small.