What is your 3 betting range Idontworkhere? Do you flat with anything?

I agree 3 betting here is profitable but so is nearly every other hand and small PPs have huge value here, especially if we expect a few more callers (which is usually a given).

The example is not close to identical either. It is about attacking a deep fish on a table with other solid players who are not deep. On these tables you really want to iso that player. You say everyone is a bad player, which is fine, but then you dont need to iso to attack.

Also, 500bb is way deeper and changes the hand dramatically. One of the reasons to 3bet in his example is because they will usually price you in for a set with the 4bet, which while not likely changes EV quite a bit 500 deep.

All the name calling both ways is silly though. 3betting isnt terrible, although I certainly prefer a call. I dont see why you cant float good boards and take it down unimproved on a call. I would rather 3bet hands that arent good enough to call but with some blockers to take down postflop and flat with these hands that have nice value by calling as well.

My button range against one pre-flop raise to 4x. I'm 3-betting the top of my range, probably TT+, AQ+. I'm 3-betting the weakest part of my range like small pairs, Axs, sometimes Kxs (but usually need better reads/images to play lower than K9).

I'm flatting with a range inbetween. Stuff that flops well. Stuff that I can profitably call and play post-flop. SC's, 1 gappers, suited broadways. KQo, sometimes KJo

We don't need to make money post flop unimproved. It's called set mining, when we flop a set we have plenty of opportunity to make money.

You're still set-mining

Raising to 18 and getting called a perfectly fine in terms of implied odds.

I'm speaking from my own experience, but I can count on 1 hand the number of deep stack 4 bets I see in a week of playing LLSNL. It almost never happens.

So I simply do not believe that value lost by folding 100% to a 4-bet is greater than value gained by playing a 3-bet pot in position with a made hand. Convince me?

EDIT: In order to convince me, you'll need to show me a range of weaker hands that villain is raise/folding preflop for 10 more GBP

Assuming that we agree players are extremely sticky and have a hard time folding when they hit everything then I really dont think we are raising to set mine. We can get stacks in pretty easily without needing the 3bet(something that is likely tougher in the 500 deep example).

You are saying to 3bet because he will be c/f a lot. We can do this with any hand, so I prefer to do it with hands that I am folding (fairly similar to yours in a vacuum) then a small PP. Tables I play at, which is very easy, certainly have some 4bets. Obviously not good players but QQ+ is 4betting almost always. These are hands we really want to play small PP against 160 deep so folding to a 4bet is pretty crushing.

Also, what do you define as a made hand? Something that beats A high? I am just curious how that sentence got in. Are you trying to get get to showdown when your 3bet gets called?

He hasn't described anything beyond C betting and hoping they fold. He will not admit that 3 betting small pp is bad in this spot.

Read page 1 of this thread and all i seen was people taking gear

MINE IS BIGGER THAN YOURS

thanks for derailing the thread guys

OP: can we have some more info on this villain? his position? our perception of his opening range in that position? how does he play post flop?

I apologize in advance if we've covered this somewhere between page 2-4 I just got a little tired of looking for it through all the troll posts

no further reads I think

and it never ends

Sorry, I hadn't been able to get to my emails until now. I'm locking this thread because any value it generated has been long erased by the sniping. The two major protagonists are currently on vacation.

Venice10