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Did I play this 2p OTF the most profitably? Did I play this 2p OTF the most profitably?

06-19-2017 , 10:43 PM
This hand occurred a few nights ago at a live 1/2 cash game with five players, many of whom I've had a long history with and know their general styles of play.

Prehand Descriptions
VILLAIN1 (150 BB): This guy is generally fairly fishy; he almost always overvalues his hands and will donk bet or cbet most pairs he makes on the flop/turn, even if they are weak (low kicker). If he is last to act and there was a raise, he usually calls too often with marginal holdings. (For example, he has donked AJ into an A94 all clubs board in the past.) He rarely 3!, and if he does, the sizing is usually way too small or way too big, but he almost never 3! bluffs.
HERO (275 BB): seen as TAG with strong fundamental game (at this point of the night I've almost tripled my buy-in of $200).

The Hand
PREFLOP: I'm UTG and I raise to 6 with QJ. Everyone folds but V1 in the BB, and we see the flop. Pot: 13

Flop: 7 Q J I raise to 12 for pure value, knowing he generally calls in this spot when he spikes a pair or maybe is trying to catch a flush, even though he isn't priced in. Probably could've raised a bit bigger, but didn't want to scare him off. V1 calls. Pot: 37

Turn: 2 total blank, and I fire again for 37. V1 calls. At this point I feel like he must either have Qx or the nut flush draw because I can't imagine him calling with weaker hands, even despite his tendencies. Pot: 111

River: A The flush didn't get there, but if he had the A in his hand he likely spiked what he would think to be the best hand. I check, V1 bets 75, I call. V1 shows AQo and takes the hand.

My question is, is the check on the river a positive EV play in the long run? Should I check call the river in most instances or bet fold? The main reason I wanted to check rather than bet is because I couldn't justify folding after a potential 3! because I felt AQ was rather unlikely due to the lack of action pre. If I bet into him OTR, I could potentially be scaring away a bluff that more times than not comes out from him.
Did I play this 2p OTF the most profitably? Quote
06-19-2017 , 11:04 PM
Fold pre. I don't like the open UTG with QJos, we're out of position with less than marginal hand. If V rarely 3bets without super premiums, AQ is definitely in his flatting range. As played, I'm probably calling check calling river as we have the top of our range here and there are a lot of bluffs we can beat and also some random Axss spazz that bets the river.
Did I play this 2p OTF the most profitably? Quote
06-19-2017 , 11:26 PM
Fold pre

And you can't check river when BB is first to act

River is just a fold when he donk leads river
Did I play this 2p OTF the most profitably? Quote
06-19-2017 , 11:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wangmanthewang

The Hand
PREFLOP: I'm UTG and I raise to 6 with QJ. Everyone folds but V1 in the BB, and we see the flop. Pot: 13
This should've been I'm in the SB and V1 is on the button. He raised 6 and I called, not the other way around. My bad.
Did I play this 2p OTF the most profitably? Quote
06-20-2017 , 12:07 AM
QJo is a garbage hand UTG, even at a 1/2 game

Edit: since you were SB and V was BTN then this is a 3! or fold preflop, leaning fold since you still have BB behind and likely won't navigate the hand profitably in a 3! pot. No shame in folding junk from the SB if your only plan is to flop a pair.
Did I play this 2p OTF the most profitably? Quote
06-20-2017 , 01:16 AM
Er, did you guys advocating for folding pre see this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wangmanthewang
This hand occurred a few nights ago at a live 1/2 cash game with five players, many of whom I've had a long history with and know their general styles of play.
Even if he means 5 opponents so 6 handed, yeah QJo is a fold UTG at a tough 6 max table, but it's an open at pretty much any LLSNL table. The fact that people generally have such tight threebetting ranges means you can get away with a lot more.

As to OP's question, you should probably bet again on the river. It's weird because when he calls on the turn you range him at Qx or Ax, basically, which are all hands where you need to be betting the river. You would only check if you thought his range was especially draw heavy. Because you want calls from queens and weak aces, bet like halfpot OTR. If villain shoves you should fold assuming KT or AQ.
Did I play this 2p OTF the most profitably? Quote
06-20-2017 , 01:24 AM
Also there's nothing wrong with flatting QJ in the SB to a 3x button raise in this situation, although you can't just be intending to fit or fold postflop.
Did I play this 2p OTF the most profitably? Quote
06-20-2017 , 03:56 AM
^ Chris I'm talking from the perspective of a player/skill level that is creating this thread.

Even at a 6-max table I don't think I would ever flat QJo from the SB. I am 3! or folding every time. Maybe from the BB I would flat QJs, but QJo is just a terrible hand OOP without initiative.
Did I play this 2p OTF the most profitably? Quote
06-20-2017 , 04:22 AM
In a high rake environment it's probably better to just fold. I'm not super keen to light 3! this guy given his description. I don't think flatting is terribad but it's probably a bit thin given rake considerations.
Did I play this 2p OTF the most profitably? Quote
06-20-2017 , 12:42 PM
just as an aside, thank you ChrisV for your response, I definitely feel like bet-folding is the correct play in hindsight. There was no rake in this cash game (just arranged between friends).
Did I play this 2p OTF the most profitably? Quote
06-20-2017 , 01:24 PM
shouldnt show results because the river is the money spot in the hand, rest is WP

A completes KT straight plus a lot of 2p hands so could be a fold, the rest of the hand is perfect

tough river tho
Did I play this 2p OTF the most profitably? Quote

      
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