Effective stacks £800. £1/2 table, but everyone is straddling so essentially playing like a 2/5 game. Lots of money on the table, plenty of action but no spazz-tards.

Hero (£800) on the Button: White, middle-aged guy, dressed like a banker. Mainly 'cause he's a banker. Started out with £400 and doubled up but not by winning any big pots. I haven't had to show down any bluffs. If anyone is paying close attention they'll notice I am rarely (if ever) in a hand with junk when I'm out of position. I have only 3-bet once pre-flop in the last hour or so and everyone folded.

Villain (£1600) Big Blind: Table's big winner has been playing fairly aggressively but always seems to have the goods when called. Hasn't shown a single bluff that I've seen. That said, won the majority of his stack in one huge three-way pot with pocket Kings vs JT on a KTTxx board. He has three-bet once or twice in the last couple of hours (including with the Kings hand).

Hero is on the button. Loose/agro UTG1 player (been the most active and 'gambily' at the table)- makes it ¥12. Two callers, and folds to me. I three-bet to £45.

(tough spot here - if anyone has been paying attention, they should realize I'm not 3-betting light or just squeezing with some raggy suited ace. I don't want to blow people out of the hand, which is what I think happens if I make it £60 or more).

Villain 4! to £120. Folds to us on Button.

We could fold, flat, 5!, or ship. Merits/demerits for each line?

I 5! to £295.

Villain 6! ships. Pot is about £1,100, £500 for us to call.

Nobody does this with QQ or worse, right?

I dont like the 5bet to 295, once you do that you pretty much have to go with it.
I prefer flat the 4bet, keep his range wide and play poker ip this deep. We should never look to get KK in pf 400bb deep against a standard villian

Plus 1.

5 bet is fine but I don't mind a flat of the 4 bet when you are otb. As played its tough to justify a fold. I call and hope he spazzed with AK or JJ (optimistic)

As played call it off, but you're smoked here.

I'm not sure I understand the consensus response. I came to the same conclusion as everyone - 'nobody is 6-bet shipping with QQ or worse unless they are a total spaz' - so I made the puke fold. If we know we are behind, if 'we're smoked', why do we 'have to call it off'?

My reasoning for 5! vs flatting was: if I flat, the pot is £280 and the guy has been very aggressive: I know I'm going to face a big bet (at least £200) on pretty much any flop, and I will be hating life on any flop with a card higher than a 10 unless I specifically flop a King. Calling the 120 to set mine just seems bad, so I 5! assuming he folds his Ax hands, which is just fine by me. I assume he usually ships AA but might flat sometimes. I think he flats QQ sometimes, and yes, maybe he folds sometimes. But there are more Ax hands that I'm happy he just folds now that offsets the times we get him to fold QQ.

I assume last poster before you ment that we make ourself pot comitted by 5 betting pre, because of the amount of money we have invested in the pot already. Thats why the consesus seems ITT seems to be not 5 betting, because when you do that you are on the path of stacking off 400 BB pre with KK.

For me the case is the same, playing this deep big pocket pairs go down in value and i really like the idea of just flatting the 4 bet to keep villains range as wide as possible, and at the same time maybe being able to do some pot control post flop in position on dangerous/borderline board runouts or get solid value on "safe" runouts.

Its not too difficult to play postflop in this spot. Your nightmare cards are Q and the Ace. Im pretty much calling down on any other runout though. If you face heavy aggression when there is a Q or an Ace on the board then just fold.


The reason why your 4bet size commits you is because when he 5bet ships: were getting 2:1 on a call.
Lets assume his ship range is:
Full6 combos of AA
Full 1 combo of KK
Discounted 3 combos (out of 16)of AK
Discounted 1 combo (out of 6) of QQ

I think that is a somewhat reasonable range for somebody to 5bet ship preflop. Sometimes people will spazz 10% of the time with QQ or AK and shove. (Maybe im wrong and its 100% AA KK, in which case you should fold, even though you are getting 2:1. But if my assumptions are accurate, then you have 34.5% equity vs his range and should call.

He can only have 8 combos of AK. 16 combos of AQ but I don't think anybody shoves AQ here, so literally only one combo if we're really generous. Maybe 1 or at most two combos of AK. One combo of QQ. I dismiss weird bluffs since it looks like I am never folding, and he knows (or should expect) that he has no fold equity.

Six combos of AA which has me crushed, and 1-2 of Ak/AQ, which is basically a flip, and 1 of QQ where I'm the big favorite. so 33% only if we assume he'd six-bet shove into the preflop 3-better with AQ or QQ. If my realistic best-case scenario is basically break-even pot odds to be on a flip for 400BB...I think it's a fold.

call the 4bet, raise and get it in on any non ace high flop

if its ace high call it down or check it down

/thread

First off, he's 6bet shipping it here. Not 5bet shipping it. His range gets even tighter.
I'd say KK+ only. If he's doing it with AK, it's with AKs not AKo. So, we'll say 2 combos. And 1 combo of QQ. But whatever. Even still, I'm folding.

FWIW: You are not a flip vs AK/AQ... you are a significant 65/35 favorite... that's much different than a flip.

And I'm never 5betting in this spot without history.
Seems like a great spot to keep his range wider when we are IP and can play well against him post flop.

Any results?

I obviously puke folded. Six-bet shipping 400bb in a 1/2 game, and I have two blockers to AK? I just don't think I'm ahead here one out of three times, not when we're this deep. I've seen 100bb effective 3- and 4-bets with weird stuff, and maniacs can do all sorts of stuff...but this guy wasn't a maniac, and we were very very deep.

fold is pretty simple, but that is why u flat his 4bet

to keep JJ-QQ AQ AK in the pot and all of his bluffs (unlikely but possible)

flat, flop comes J53 , he bets you raise and get it in

/thread

I am obviously in the minority here, but I feel like the 4! Doesn't commit us. When we make it 295, and he shoves his range is only KK or AA. 95% of the time that is the case. Flating and seeing a flop is a good enough option, but what happens when it comes 9 high and he bets 250? We are setting ourselves up to go broke on the turn.

4 bet folding to a 5 bet is exploitable, yes. But not in 1-3 games.

Im confused. If you're afraid of any flop t or higher then you think he has tt,jj,qq in his 4 betting range, so you want to 5 bet to fold them out? This reminds me of people that raise to see where they're at. If you think he would 4 bet with worse but only continue against a 5 bet with better or the same then flat to keep his range wide. My opinion the way you think you shouldnt be playing deep stacked poker because you are clearly playing scared.

LOL at the playing scared comment, you have no clue what you're talking about.

I 5! because I thought I could still get called by worse, and I'm not all that upset if Ax hands fold. JJ and TT ain't putting in another penny anyway unless they spike a set so it doesn't matter. And I can safely fold to a ship, because it's only aces or kings.

I'm sorry if the concept of raise-folding is too advanced for you,

What the fsck?

First off, if you're saying that you can safely fold to a 6bet shove, why are you posting this? You get 6bet, now you fold. Easy game. At least according to your post.

And you say that JJ is going to call a 5bet here possibly, but that same person that will call a 5bet with JJ isn't going to bet a 7 high flop, a 9 high flop, a T high flop when you just flat? He thinks that your range is ONLY hands that beat him when he 4bets and you flat? Wow. That's some sick meta game that you have going on here. You're telling me that he won't bet again on a 558 board? Or a 227 board? That's just crazy talk. And it just doesn't make sense.

+2

wtf are you talking about? You're not making any sense.

You might have to fill me in on raise folding but you got cold 4 bet and decided to turn KK into a bluff. You lost all the value of your hand. You were better off playing 2 napkins like that.

Why post if you dont want to hear that you played it badly? When you did.

This is the perfect classic case of a click-back fold. Raise folding 300 is too large of a bet and totally unnecessary.

Raise folding around the 230 mark (or whatever the clickback is) is perfect.

Assuming hes not good enough to realize what you're doing. Clicking back looks super polarized to aa and folding everything else. If I cold 4 bet light to a btn 3bet and u click it back with these stacks Im shoving if I have an ace blocker assuming I would 4bet like a5s oopin a live game which I wouldnt because btn never folds.

Players usually want to use transference as to what others will do. This is usually 99% wrong. Under routine conditions a shove of this size stack will be AA literally 99% of the time and nothing else. I had this conversation with a pro who plays deep 5-10 everyday and he disagreed harshly. Then after a few months he came back and told me that after seeing these plays over and over, that he now agreed with me and employs the play 100% now. Finding players who will shove these sized stacks with Ax suited (at low limit live) is just a pie in the sky thought. You may or may not really do this---matters not----in eeryday cardrooms you just wont see it really ever.

My thoughts exactly. 5bet tiny to $200. He will only 6bet with KK+ and flat or fold the rest of his range

Villain would only have to call $80 more and starting stacks are $800 so it's doubtful he'd fold any PP at this point. The thing is though ANL is absolutely correctly. Even if they put u on KK+, they often call at least one street on safe flops anyways with hands like QQ, JJ because most villains get attached to their hand. Min 5betting allows us to save $600 when he has AA which is a huge win in and of itself even if he always calls pre with smaller PPs and check folds flop if he doesn't hit a set. And this is an absolute worse case scenario too.