But limping the button with KJs isn't like an actual leak that will turn a winning player into a losing player, it is just not as good as raising.

Let me put it like this: TAG poker means you raise PF here 100% of the time.

I just said "turrible" because I thought it sounded funny.

fold to c/r.

actually i alway raise here pf... i prob check flop though but i think b/f might be better.

i guess a lot of combo draws are in his range but you have to be less than like 30-40% i think vs a reasonable range.

heres the thing if hes only shoving w/ TP+ than b/f is perfect as it protects our hand without losing showdown value. if hes shoving combo draws checking behind and calling a turn bet might be better. Idk if you've seen him and how he plays short stacking b4 but typically short stackers are either shove/fold so cbetting w/ marginal hands kinda sucks IMO. (His % of c/shoving OTF is important here... if hes ever c/c before than i prob b/f... if hes only c/shoving a small % of the time he sees then b/f is alright... if he donks a lot than your in a weird situation than b/f is fine i guess... Is he relatively passive or loose passive than b/f is best... The opposite of these would encourage checking behind.)

(I NEVER PLAN A HAND LIKE THIS TO B/C EXCEPT VS SOME1 C/SHOVING LIKE 30+% OF FLOPS HE SEES... THE PLANNING OF THIS HAND SHOULD BE THE QUESTION NOT WHETHER OR NOT TO CALL NOW)

with someone else calling the initial flop bet already, id fold. but if it was just villain and you, and he shoves, id happily call.

Raising KJs over 5 "i always l/c" 1/2 fish is actually pretty loose. This isnt tag at all imo. KJs does plays well multiway, but its still really not that good of a hand dude.

I would rather check behind on the flop and reevaluate the turn. A huge majority of 1/2 players give away their hand strength based on bet sizing tells so use that to your advantage and pick up more information on the turn.

It is NOT loose- it is tight and aggressive. You are way ahead of a bunch of limper's ranges. You have an edge- do not pass in pressing the advantage.

Also, just because a player limped doesn't mean they are going to call if you raise- one reason you raise is to thin the field. If they call the small raises, raise bigger. And if they are limo/calling big bets with trash, this is good for you- they are making significant mistakes.

KJs playes well in a multi way pot because it's a suited gapper, but well in a HU pot because it has high card strength. You will get more value from it if you can get money in the pot against weak hands and thin the field than if you simply limp behind.

It seems the "limp a speculative and and get a big payoff" attitude is pervasive in this forum, but that is not TAG play, and it won't win you near as much as gaining the initiative and pushing people around (the 'AG' part of TAG).

I think not raising her is indicative of a weak poker style that probably shows up in other more destructive ways.

Grunch.

A bet of $10 after five limpers wouldn't even be a respectable raise at the 1/1 games I play at let alone 1/2. I'd normally expect all five to happily call.

Yechh. I hate these short stacks. I'd find another card room with higher max buyins...

Messy, messy flop. On the one hand we want to charge draws. On the other hand I think we'd just as soon keep the pot a bit smaller since we only have middle with no real draws of our own. I like checking to take the free card and eval on the turn since we're in position. If we are going to bet out since we were the pre-flop raiser, we need to bet bigger - closer to $30 or so. Betting $15 pretty much tells the table 'I have middle pair and want to see where I'm at'.

As played - fold; too many hands in villains' range that crush our one pair. Personally I'm more concerned about V1's hand than V2....

Seems like stacks are fairly small? I'm not exactly sure how KJs fares in shortstack situations, but I think I'd rather just overlimp with this decent multiway hand and see a flop in position. I'm really surprised a $10 raise got this 3way after so many limpers; if I were to raise, I'd raise a lot more to ensure this (but I guess you know your table).

A $15 bet into $37 is a pretty weak bet and asking to get played back at, IMO. I'd make it $25 so that we can probably safely fold to any raise. Although even here I'd fold to the raise due to all this action.

GcluelessNLnoobG

There are simply too many "we should do this, because it's TAG, or because it's consensus."

So again, why isn't this a c-bet?

http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...fpart=all&vc=1


The table is $100 max BI, and there's probably $40 or $60 minimum BI.Without more information from OP, it makes more sense to assume that the table has mostly short stacks than otherwise. Your argument is just an attempt to justify that you ignored the effective stack size.

See the other thread. I expected more than just "oh it's always donkey" argument from someone that has posted for a long long time.

Well I asked, because it sounded like you were leading a horse to the ocean to drown.

+1

At this level, I think it's fine to get into a pot with lottsa players with mediocre holdings and simply outplay them postflop (and by outplay, I don't mean make a lot of outstanding moves or whatever, I simply mean win more when we're ahead and, most importantly, lose less when behind).

To be honest I have never once seen you give any good advice in any thread at any time so I am just going to let the conversation rest

The non sequitur here is that you have the ability to outplay them post flop which is likely just not true.

Ha, that very well could be true! (see bottom two pair thread)

Do you recommend at a ~50BB table to always raise pre-flop in LP with KJs?

Not sure if you have read this thread, but you can probably continue somewhere here around page 4 (I have the default 10 posts per page setting):

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...80/index4.html

Yes, but if your plan to play HU is to "bet bigger to thin the field," then you probably won't ever get a worse hand than KJs to call you. Plus unless it's that 25% of the time that we hit the flop, c-bet is necessary to win the flop. If 5BB doesn't thin the field, and we go up to 10BB or even 12BB, c-bet would then have to be around 15 - 20BB. That's half of your stack on the flop alone.

What is more pervasive is the attitude that almost every spot is standard.

Why? Because you are not actually making any good argument relating to this hand, or because you can't think of any to counter my points?

Btw, I just noticed that above was an attempt to goad at me. Have you read your own advice? Most of them are simply one or two sentence responses without any clarification.

"Oh that's donkey, don't do that."

And when you attempt to explain why "that's donkey," you come up with illogical and irrelevant argument to the hand played.



I don't get it. You think that limp/raise UTG with JJ at 50BB is a donkey move, and implied that you can outplay a field from UTG with JJ:

But in a much much better scenario where you're on the button with KJs, you don't think you can outplay them post flop?