Warning: Long

From aba20's (aka sbrugby aka Brian Townsend) 'My Story' thread: "...I was crushing these live no limit games as they are very very soft. I would consistently build ten buy in stacks."


Live 2/5 NL games are zany, spewy donkathons that the standard 2p2/CR/Stox/deucescracked 14/12/4 method will beat.

But not for 10BI consistently.

I think I know what does. Maybe this is how Townsend did it. Maybe not. Maybe there are a lot of ways to do it.

And I've seen a couple of them. And if you've played a lot of live 1/2 and 2/5 NL, then you likely have, too.

I'm talking about the player that sees 30+% of flops, yet somehow wins 100-200+BB/day, if not a helluva lot more. Their hourly rates are something I've only read about in Angel Largay's book, 40BB+/hour. Laugh at a VPIP > 30%, but there's no denying their consistent results, not to mention their occasional 15+BI victories. These guys – let's call them Supreme Donkey Crushers (SDC) would be destroyed online, but the donkathons of 1/2 NL and 2/5 live are totally different and their game is tailor-made to clean house there.


How?


And WTF?


There are two types of SDCs that I've seen: (1) The maniacally LAG Super-System-on-steroids guy who bluffs at tons of pots then use their image to get action on their big hands and (2) The constant limper who almost never raises preflop, sees tons of flops and even turns, steals a ton on the turn and river, yet somehow wins all in pots once per 50-60 hands, while almost never losing them. Check-raising and slowplaying are a big part of 2's arsenal.

WTF?!?!


I've listed some Donk Elements (DE) of live play and then some Donkey-Crushing Adjustments and Ideas (DCA/DCI). Individually, they all make sense, but don't all work well together. Please add to the list if you can think of anything. And please PLEASE tell me how these incredibly loose guys beat the games for such monstrous amounts, other than obviously superior reads.

Keep in mind that I'm saying that these are DEs relative to what is best at an ONLINE NL100-500 FR table.


DE 1: Most live players limp and/or call way too many hands pre-flop, especially in RIO situations and with speculative hands when SPRs are not favorable. E.g. They'll limp-call with 9 8 for 15+% of their stack pre-flop or limp-call with K J to a tight player's raise. They also play absolute garbage like 10 4 half the time, hoping to hit their miracle.
DE 2: Most live players don't bet enough relative to the pot, especially at 1/2. Pot has $45? Donk bet TPNK for $12 into 5 people on a 6 7 9 flop.
DE 3: Most live players slowplay and check-raise too much... (or maybe they do it in the wrong spots).
DE 4: Most live players do not shift gears or balance their play. Ever.
DE 5: Most live players play their draws way too loose-passive and rarely adjust to bet-sizes appropriately. E.g. Eff stacks of $150 on flop, many live players will call a $60 bet to chase a bare NFD on a 8 10 K board, then fold if they miss.
DE 6: Most live players do not value bet thinly enough.
DE 7: ~Half of live players do not adjust to anything but the most extreme styles of opponent play.
DE 8: Most live players have little to no concept of position.

DCA 1: Loosen up starting hand requirements. Speculative hands go up in value because most pots are multiway so flop SPRs are usually favourable, loose-passive play means draws are cheap and likely to get paid off when they hit. Few players will know what you're doing because they're just not observant enough; they wouldn't know what to do about this if they were. So limp 7-6s or 3-3 UTG. And call if there's a raise pre-flop; you can usually just flat even if there a bunch of other limpers that could conceivably fold... but won't because they're donkeys. The implied odds will be there. Also, since people in these games don't know the fundamentals, hands like AJ and KT go up in value because the fish will call UTG raises with A4o and K8o. So simply opening up your starting hand range from 14/12 to maybe 25/20 and then playing ABC post-flop might be the easiest adjustment to make in a live game.

DCA 2: Loosen up value betting requirements post-flop. Since you know they're calling your UTG raise with crap like A4o pre-flop, your AJ on the A93 flop is worth way more live than it would ever be online. Go to Value Town with TPGK.

DCA 3: Make bet sizing more straight forward. Live players won't know what you're doing. Bet more with big hands and less with bluffs. Have AJ on JJ3 flop? Value bet 90% of pot. Have 98s on JJ3 flop? Bluff ½ pot. Have AA and want to get value? Open-raise to 8+BB in 1/2 or 5 BB at 2/5. Have 22 and want to build a pot and or (I'm not kidding) price yourself in with a pre-flop blocker bet? Open-raise to 3BB in either game. Most live players are not good enough to have any idea what this means or that they should do something about it.

DCA 4: Trust your reads fairly quickly. If players don't shift gears, then it takes far fewer hands to get a read on them. Simple enough. If a guy has fired on 5 consecutive flops, label him a maniac until you have reason to believe otherwise. If a guy has been a nit for an hour, assume he's a nit. Online, continue to infer ~0 after 20 hands.

DCA 5: For starting hands, adjust to position way less live than online. Online, KQo is a RIO hand most of the time, albeit a profitable one in MP or LP. Live, it's probably profitable everywhere because people will flat, limp-call or even open-raise with hands that have RIO vs your KQo like K8, QT, and tons of other garbage.

DCA 6: With respect to reads when a player bets out, draws are a very small part of their range. Live players think that any draw is a checking and calling hand, even A K on a T J 9 flop with the pot slightly larger than their stack.

DCI 1: The Super System style – as opposed to the 14/12/4 style – has merits. If you play like a maniac, good and gutsy players will loosen up and give you more action. But there aren't a lot of good and gutsy players at 1/2 or 2/5. When it becomes clear that you will double or triple barrel every hand you play (while voluntarily showing a monster on occasion), most players tighten up just like Brunson says, and wait to flop the nuts. But you steal so many pots while they're waiting for the nuts that they end up losing a ton to you... then they don't get paid when they finally hit, because their hand is face up.

Have you tried playing like a megamaniac at the casinos? How do the other players react? Do they turn into nut-mining nits? I tried this once, playing something like 60/50 on the HJ, CO, and BTN with a cbet % of at least 90%. I could not believe how often people called pre-flop then folded post-flop. Perhaps people just missed too many flops, but the frequency of 4+ way pots (it was a live game, after all) makes that unlikely. They just wanted to make the nuts and trap me.

DCI 2: Some SDCs see tons of turns and rivers. When the pot is 25BB+ and nobody's expressed interest, they stab with a big bet at a ridiculous frequency. Obviously they don't always have the nuts, but they somehow always pick the right spots to do this. And the live players won't play a big pot or call a big bet without a big hand. I think I'm going to try this. Can you see many live players check-hero-calling your $60 stab with 6-5 in a $70 pot on a 26K9r turn in a multiway pot? Even HU? I can't. So I'm going to try it more next time I play live.

DCI 3: Have you read Angel Largay's book? Just ask yourself “Who's more likely to go broke?” and then if it's a villain, ask “How will villain most likely go all in?” For example, if you flop a set against a player who raised pre-flop on a 9 3 2 flop, how does ALL the money go in, (assuming 100+BB stacks to begin with). Online, we play aggressively to deny draws correct odds and to get value before scare cards fall. Live, I'm not sure that's always the best play, regardless of position...

DCI 4: Increase frequency of check-raising vs players who will bet multiple streets to protect their one pair hands. SDCs' frequent check-raising and slowplaying seem to get commitment from and trap a lot of people who find themselves playing bigger pots than they wanted to. A lot. A LOT. And it gets their big hands paid a helluva lot more than most other players'. On that 9 3 2 board, how does a set get 100BBs in? The Super System SDCs can just fire out, but other SDCs would slowplay, slowplay, slowplay, even in a multiway pot, trusting that they can detect a flush, while letting someone else hang themselves. I'm not exactly sure why, but playing live, this is how I see a particular SDC stack players at an astounding rate.

DCI 5: Banish autopilot. Since most live players don't even know what to think about, you don't have to go all that far to out think them. E.g., If 2 straightforward players check in a 4-way pot on a 2 8 T board in a 4-way pot, his range is 99.7% non sets or big draws and he can thus play a big pot 0.03% of the time. So if you're bluffing, you're only worry about the 3rd guy and there is a lot of dead money in the pot. If a guy is fit or fold, fire at him every single time he checks. If he's a calling station with TPNK for 3 streets, value bet him to death with TPGK but rarely bluff him. If he's the maniac who sees all flops and fires, loosen up and give him more action than he wants.

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I'm sure we can all agree that live 1/2 and 2/5 NL are donkathons and while 14/12/4 while beat them, it won't clean house for several BI/day like Brian Townsend or the seemingly wildly loose players did/do.

I've shared my ideas on that.

What are yours?

EDIT:
for DCI 4: Increase frequency of check-raising and slowplaying monsters vs...

Sorry I don't have much to comment on yet (maybe later) but wanted to say, good post. It's a pretty solid guidebook on how live play is totally different than online and why. This is a surprisingly accurate summary of how I play most of the time, which is slightly annoying. And you are completely correct in that not enough people adjust.


Also, I'd add one thing into your list for live play. Table switch if the game is nitty or tough. Too often people sit at a game and don't want to switch because they want the challenge or ego boost of beating better players. It's never worth it. Just because you can beat good players doesn't mean you can't beat worse players for much more, and have just as much fun doing it.

Good, well thought out post. The biggest live low limit winners actively play alot of pots against those they can outplay postflop. (by the way this is the reason the best low limit players much prefer a time charge over a rake structure.) What it boils down to is how well you can read hands, players and situations, when to push the envelope and when to get away from a decent but second best hand, or even possibly the current best hand in an unfavorable situation.

Manipulating your opponents is very important. Someone I know likes to drink and come off as a drunken maniac donkey, raising a ton preflop when in reality he's building an image to be paid off in a big pot later.

wow incredible post... don't have time now, will read more and make comments later

people play so bad/weird/spewy at some of these games very unorthadox adjustments can be made to increase profit incredibally

As a 2/5 and 5/10 "SDC" I can assure you more often than not the game is so LAG that staying in low gear is going to be the most profitable. If the game that you are in does not qualify for low gear only, there is a more profitable game somewhere else in the room.

ty

What would you say your VPIP/PFR/AF and Aggro Frequency are? Do you know what kind of hourly rate you make at 1/2 and 2/5? Are you one of those guys who makes $100+/hour at these tables?

Thanks.

For a good post-flop player, what do you think is a good VPIP at live 1/2 and 2/5?

You are a SDC? Cool to have your opinion.

Mind if I ask what your win rate is at the live games you play?

And what exactly do you mean by "low gear"? If you mean ~14/12/4 TAG, I just cannot imagine anybody consistently building 10BI stacks per day like that.

Thanks.

I look forward to reading about some more "very unorthodox adjustments to increase profit incredibly".

At 5/10 I average 144.8$/hour with an average bb/hour of 14.88 obv . I don't play online (can't sit in front of the computer that long and play my best) so to be honest i don't know what 14/24/4 means, but yes a modified tag is the way to go. There are many plays and to be honest your most basically nails the way I play right on the head except for a few differences which I will have to go over later (Gotta leave for a xmas party shortly).

Maybe my idea of low gear is different than others but in a game with strong players every once in a while I'm going to do something like raise with J10s in mid/early position just to keep people on their toes, but in the nitty games I look for that's not a viable play because 9/10 players focus on what they have only, and that k9 looks good as anything to them. They will never remember that I have only played 2 hands in the past 30 minutes, or bother to profile me as TAG or put me on a range preflop. they will see 53s and they know they can make a straight or flush and call regardless of the pot or position so the element of deception is removed completely. It is much better to limp into a lot of pots with a much wider range of hands than normal (any PP, any almost any suited connecter/gap connecter even Kxs) and try to hit a monster/ outplay post flop vs the people you know you can bully.

Solid hand reading abilities and the ability to see through BS betting lines are crucial (that's a big reason why I make the money I do) because there are the guys that will shove any draw no matter what and you have to be able to make those calls with TPGK and worse. (your comments on TPGK were spot on as well.) Also because you are playing hands like A9-AJ and non nut flushed much more liberally if you don't know when they're beat it defeats the purpose of getting in with those hands to begin with.

There are a lot of plays that are profitable that many people would consider insanity online.

Honestly I have no idea. I just moved to where a casino is within driving distance about 7 months ago, and I've been crushing 2/5 but I'm positive I'm on a hot streak that's been running a few months now, so I can't be very sure what an accurate hourly rate is. Live play takes much longer to get an accurate rate at.

As for VPIP/PFR/AF, if I had to guess I'd say maybe 33/15/XX ? I can't really estimate AF, and PFR is hard to estimate too -- VPIP is probably accurate at 1/3.


Also, I'll add to your list.

Donk-crushing is all about picking one player and getting involved in a big pot with him. When you notice a spewy player, think of how he will spew all his chips most easily. Then create that situation for yourself. Don't take this to extremes -- you don't need to get involved in every pot with him, but you should take whatever situation you can manufacture and abuse it. Folding preflop is bad against these players - you are going to stack them, and PFR does not matter nearly as much. Some people's weakness is underplaying big PP preflop, overplaying postflop, so crush them -- other's is a tendency to call down with any Ax, so push harder with AQ for value. Others love draws, so overbet pot when you know they have a draw. Others can't help bluffing, so check/call them to death. These might be advice that also applies online, but it's much more useful live as it's easier to see and notice. You should be able to pick up on these within a round or two.

Also, something you mentioned briefly is how position doesn't matter -- you should play KQ from any position. While I agree, I'd say position matters crucially in raising. Position raising is absolutely key, as when you raise preflop live people generally assume AA is your minimum requirement for doing so (despite calling you down with TP, they'll be scared of AA the entire way).

I dunno, live play is a lot different than online. I've seen a lot of online players who don't translate well to live play -- too tight and too aggro. They'll be profitable but not nearly as profitable as is possible. Or maybe I'm talking out of my @$$ -- also possible.

Holy crap.


I am going to hold you to this.


One way to crush live cash donkathons is the Super System Maniac on Steroids Style

This is core to crushing with the other style.


That's because playing 30+% of your hands online is insane.

14/12/4 means you voluntarily put money in the pot with 14% of your hands pre-flop (VPIP); you open-raise or reraise 12% of your dealt hands pre-flop (PFR); 4 means that you bet and raise 4 times as often as you call post-flop, but this ignores all checks and folds.

Before I start poppin off I just want to say one thing. I guarantee , anyone who is capable of achieving "SCD" status is well and beyond being able to destroy equal and possibly greater limits online, in my opinion. I feel this is also a great topic for discussion while we're at it.

#1 - I am drunk and not at 100% mental compacity, (I can't spell for ****) but my passion for poker comes out when I drink and I feel like typing right now, so here it goes.

I can't say I agree here. This may have been true 5 years ago, but nowadays, online tables NL25 and NL50 are unmistakably tougher than 99% of the live 1/2 and 2/5 tables I've played at.

I guess you passed out at your keyboard. Hopefully you'll wake up tomorrow without too much of hangover and write whatever you were about to write.

OK I am really trashed (christmas party ftw) so I appologize for anything ******ed I say.

Yes they do, but you say they are big winners? Absolutely false imo. Don't get me wrong, these players do win in these types of games because they are better than the average nit for the most part, but to consider them a "SDC" is just wrong. In fact, having 1 or 2 of these players in the game contributes highly to the SDC's game plan because they are the ones promoting action and very loose play at the table, and having that sort of atmosphere is the only way a "Sdc" is capable if making those insane 10 buyin stacks (consistently, anyway). This sort of villain has very high potential to make a lot of money in that one session IF he can run well AND find some nits who only play their strong hands, AND are bullyable (yeah I just made that word up) vs. them WHILE avoiding the solid players, and hoping the solid players they DO run into aren't "SDC's" who can't see right through almost every hyperaggro or textbook play they make(i.e calling 100 dollar river bluffs with bottom pair when you have a solid read which a Real SDC can a good majority of the time, I assure you) Making the most out of these players is very simple as it is usually a matter of figuring out weather it is more profitable to let the donk do the pushing or if you need to pulling.

Dealing with the type of hyper aggro players I just discussed is another aspect of live play that you must be able to dominate. The type of opponent I just talked about is one that would run all over your normal abc player, I honestly think an instinct player has a better advantage in a live game than a mathematical player because you're only playing one hand at a time and the instinct player can take the time to analyze the situation and really make the best decision based on the almost chess match style game of poker that is played above ****** levels, ( probably a horrible comparison but I think you know what I mean) and include in his decision what betting line makes sense and if that player would use that same line as a bluff.

I am just assuming I would think you online players take far less time to really consider your options for a single hand because you see so many more h.per/hr than us that it's probably more profitable to just play biased on someones stats and to just move on to the next decision (I also think I could be terribly wrong about this so please don't flame, I enjoy civilized debate so arguments are welcome).


99.9 percent of these players are a true SDC's mark. the other .1 percent (guys like phil ivey, etc) are the guys that you avoid on the table and if you are doing your job correctly the only players you should fear will realize after playing with you for a few hours that you both mutually are avoiding each other and going for the wounded ducks on the table.

Like I said I'm pretty drunk and hitting all kinds of buttons and **** so im gonna post this so I dont have to backtrack too much if I do something stupid, then I shall continue, flames wecome ftw

When I consider to be someone as a true "SCD" as you put it, I mean that is really rare. I am a very humble person and I know a ton of poker players, and a good amount of them that win overall playing the same limits I do, but I have only met a handful of people I could consider an "SDC" that I know personally. For example I used to play in So.Cal a lot, but work has moved me to florida unwillingly and I can honestly say I might have met -maybe- 1 "SCD" the whole time ive been playing in florida and I can count on 1 hand the number of players in CA I truly consider that to be on that level. I don't even like discussing this type of strategy with people but I've been lurking on another account for a while and I've been out of school for a few years now so I feel like I needed some kind of intellectual stimulation away from the tables so I started posting, lol.

I guess what I'm saying is the people I consider to be "SDC" good are more than good enough to win online. Being a consistent winner live does not make you a "SDC".

A good VPIP might be 30-35 on average, but it really depends on your opponents. On some tables, it might be higher, on others you may be better off playing around 18%. Alot of players nowadays play a weak tight, fit or fold style. A hyper aggressive style can open them up a bit and take them out of their comfort zone but you need to have a good feel for how they're reacting to you and how their hand values may or may not change. Be careful not to play a big pot without a superior hand.

1/2 and 2/5 are simple games to beat, i make about 92 dollars a hour playing these limits and the best thing i can tell people is find a good table, play tight till you double up then mix up your play and call 5 handed 10 dollar raises with 9 10 off suit, it pays off when you hit and if your good enough you can test the players when the flop comes out/turn, most 1/2 players will check around when any pair hits the flop. So test teh waters and bet it.

What do you consider a big pot to be at 1/2? I feel like the pre-flop raise sizing to 8+BBs throws it all out of whack.

QFT

It centers more around commitment than the dollar size of the pot. The most important factor obviously is the effective stack size. You have to have a good idea whether your opponent wants to commit his stack or not. You usually don't want to call $15 bets preflop against someone with 40 bb's behind him without a pretty good hand. Often though, as is the beauty of live 1-2, the effective stacks become 250+ bb's and that is when you can really loosen up and look to play post flop.

How many hours of live poker a week do you guys play? how many hours do you aim for in a live session? I need to really start grinding 40+ hours a week in 2009 of live poker but I usually fall into a hit and run mentallity and at the end of the month dont have nearly enough hours in so not nearly enough $ in my pocket. do you guys have any advice on the mindset of going to casino and playing 8 hour sessions 5-7 days a week? I play in Tampa mostly the 2/5NL game only a 100max buy in(florida law) but the stacks are usually around 200-500 after the game gets going. plenty of bad players.

I live in Jacksonville so I deal with the same laws, and I never play more than 20 a week due to work/social activities. (I hate to say it but I do hit and run sometimes, if I get up to 1000+ off of 1 buyin I usually leave... I know I shouldn't but whatever.) In Florida we have the perfect setup to make insane amounts of cash, only risking 100$ at a time, and with people playing so terribly it's not hard to get someone heads up all-in when they hold something like Q10.

Yeah, when I was playing live full time, it could be mind-numbingly boring playing ~14% of hands and thus very difficult to put in 40 hours/week. That's one of the reasons I'm looking for different ways to play and win.

Florida sounds juicy... is it just the buy-in that's capped at $100 or the betting per hand/round?