1/2 live

V1 EP ($700)is very loose pre and would always raise 88-TT pre.
V2 HJ ($225) an OMC who has played maybe 3 hands in non-limped pots in the last 6 hours.

Hero BB covers.

Couple of limps, hero checks 55 in the BB.

Pot:8

Flop: 5s 8s Th.

I check, V1 bets 16, v2 calls. I'm about 85-90 percent are v1 has T8. I assume v2 had a good ten, maybe the NFD, or something like jacks (yes he would limp jacks). He could have a set by I would expect him to raise.

Hero raises to 55. I used a smaller sizing as I felt pretty good that neither was drawing. V1 calls. V2 jams for 225 total. Hero???

I'm beyond confused. I don't think he would trap a set on a non-rainbow board, but. I don't know. My instinct says that the amount he's betting matters more than the line he took and assuming it's logical. I think v1 is done with the hand regardless of what I do.

Folding a set on the flop seems just terrible but I can't remember the last time I saw an old guy not play any hands and then just jam a combo draw.

Maybe he decided his QQ or JJ or AT needs protection???

He could limp KK or AA. Pretty common with OMC types. Is V2 in the SB? If so he could have 2p hands. Combo draw like 76ss or AQss not out of the question.

So let's say there's 3 combos TT and 3 combos 88 and 24 combos JJ+ villain has some percentage of the time. If villain is known to play overpairs or combo draws like this even sometimes I'm not folding. Sets are just rare.

Plus old men sometimes spaz out with AT or JJ here as they're super afraid of being drawn out.

I'm personally not folding at these stack depths. If he's got TT so be it but I expect to run into JJ+ pretty often and you have good odds

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I remember an OMC, who finally figured out he can't win & is M.I.A., told me once after a guy won with 76s: "You'll never see me win a pot with that hand. Not ever."

"Why is that?"

"Because I don't play SCs."

OMC has trapped you two perfectly & he is finally going to recoup the blinds he bled off over the last 6 hours. Me, I am folding 100% of the time. I don't give a rat's ass if I do throw away the best hand; this OMC DID NOT call/jam with a weaker hand than you. If he did, he has no other combo other than Js9s.

I am not giving my cheques to an OMC. Period. He has turned his hand over with that jam.

I understand where Shai Hulub is coming from; he has an excellent point. However, I am not EVER, risking my cheques vs. an OMC, whom I will not see in a pot again for another 6 hours. He'll probably rack it up & head home if you call.

Set over set is rare.............How rare is OMC flatting bet OTF & then jamming when you raise w/o a BIG hand?

DISCLAIMER: Although I play an avg of 1500 hrs per year since retiring 3 years ago, I do not win 10BBs+ per over over my last 2500 hrs. Therefore, I am not a Crusher.

the only thing these threads are good for is to establish a culture of nitrolling in game.

Fair points ZuneIt, but we should be careful about lumping together all OMCs. Some of them are extreme weak tight players, some are nits, some are TAGs, some are just fish, and a small percentage are LAGs.

I think most fall into the nit / extreme weak tight camp, but I'd like more info on this guy before folding a set barely 100bb deep, as a sizeable minatory are just fish. Is he 70? 80? 90? Does he limp JJ+?

Against some OMCs I do snap fold but I've seen old men in spots like this where I feel 99% sure they have a set show up with JJ+ or even less likely hands.

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Villain was about 68. I saw him limp JJ. I thought this would be a somewhat interesting hand because I think people, including myself, post a lot of coolers.

Result: Hero folded. I was half right, but oh so so wrong. The younger villain had T8 but the OMC ripped it in with 67 of spades. The villain with T8 also folded

That's what I get for making an lol exploitable fold. I think if this was an OMC regular folding would be more defensible, but I guess this is what I get for relying on the small sample.

Now, if he just ripped it in before I raised to 50, I still think a fold is correct, and maybe my fold was still correct in the long term, but who knows.

Let the mockery commence. Can't remember the last time I folded a set on the flop lol.

Never folding here with this small drawy board, with no flush or straights possible. I dont care if its Nitty Mcnittersen, if he managed to flop a higher set i say nice hand sir and he gets my 100 BB.

The reasons is quite obvious. We finds ourself on the very top of our range (we can make exploitative folds with a variaty of 2 pair combos for example), OMC do weird things from time to time including different kind of spazz, they limp JJ+ and treats it as the ubernutz postflop and so on.

As a cashplayer at live low stakes you have so so many other areas of your game to work on and develope than being worried if youre getting massively coolered by set over set 1 time every 300 hours of play. With all the respect to OP, i would use my energy on other more important parts of my game if you want to work on your game or discuss hands/concepts.

No idea why you're 90% sure V1 has T8 but that's kind of important to the hand

This would be a pretty normal looking line from an omc with JJ,QQ.....here, even kk and aa are not out of the question, so I just don't think you can ever fold....Yes the omc can turn up with 88,tt, in a limped pot maybe even t8s.....
When playing omc's you have to remember that they did not wait 6hours to find qq, trap a young whippersnapper with a pre-flop limp, to then do anything but gii on the flop.....
If you just always fold to the omc, you are really not exploiting there real weakness, yes its easy to just fold vs any raise from, but we have to remember that there range is always skewed to jj-aa and when they have those hands they do not want to fold.....if your beating that range gii vs them, and be amazed when the board is 7s8s9sth2c and you dump it in with a jack and they pay you off with kskc.....and then bemoan there bad luck to the rest of the table.......

So true! I will never reply to a post about an "OMC" again!
I immediately sterotyped the OMC & failed to even notice the str8 flush draw.

$95 in the pot after your $55 raise. V1 calls - $139 in pot. OMC all in for the $44 it takes to call your $55 + [$225 - ($2 + $16 + $44)] = $163 on top.

$302 - $7 rake = $295 in pot. Your $163 call will be 35.59% of the money in the pot.

You, well you have 37.6% equity IF V1 calls.

You have 57.9% equity if V1 folds.

V1 is probably folding.

I am not going to double check my math.

Did OMC rack up & go home? Or, did he sit there another 6 hours, waiting for a hand?

I want soul reading points for specifically putting 76ss in his range lol. I do think the fold was incorrect but now that you posted results it's easy to say that.

Seriously though, as I said to ZuneIT, we need to be really careful about stereotyping villains. There are different types of OMCs and a 68 year old who limps JJ+ is exactly the kind who has enough combos here we don't just auto fold because there are 6 sets ahead of us. He can and does have the 24 combos JJ+ sometimes plus combo draws like 76ss AKss AQss AJss and with pot odds we only need to find a handful of combos we're beating to justify getting it in.

As an aside, the other player's range shouldn't much concern us. We crush his range and unless he's an intelligent nit we don't much care how he reacts to the OMC's aggression.

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He played precisely one more hand in the next two hours. He 3 bet aces from 15 to 60 and someone folded QQ against him.

People don't realize sometimes but suited connectors are pretty rare. Plus if an OMC is only playing SCs if the right conditions exist, like being in latish position in a limped pot, he might have big pairs as often or more often as SCs. JTs-54s is 28 combos. TT+ is 30 combos.

We might mistakenly weight OMCs towards big pairs / AK because in big pots this is what they tend to have, but in limped pots their ranges are quite a bit wider.

Don't fold sets on the flop for 100bb. Like...ever. Just pile it in and get there if you're behind.

The flop action should be our biggest indication that he Villain is unlikely to have a set. V1 bets and V2 simply calls instead of raising. Only after Hero reopens the betting does he jam it in.

This makes a set very unlikely IMO.

Based simply on this, I would call.

No idea how you range V1 on T8 exactly, but if that's what you think he has then there is only one combo each of TT/88 remaining, which can be even further discounted since he didn't raise the first time around on a very wet board.

I've been surprised too many times by OMCs overplaying premium pre-flop hands regardless of flop texture. I've played with a woman who only raises aces pre, doesn't lose at showdown often and rarely bets without the goods go nuts against me with QQ on an A-high board because she thought I was some young FOS kid. I've seen a guy who almost never raises pre and normally only seems to bet with 2P+ b/3-bet AK on a K-high flop.

It sucks to stack off this deep with bottom set, but people overplay hands pretty badly in limped pots and even OMCs are capable of spewing. I'm not willing to lay this down.

This.

Yeah there's way more combos of like open enders nut flush draws, top pairs, two pairs over pairs, etc than just 12 combos of sets. Always getting it in here no matter what especially with your stack size. If you lose oh well not much you can do.

it´s somewhat tilting that you guys are actually discussing laying down bottom set here.

I can understand why OP made that thread. you made an insane fold, it was incorrect and now you wanted confirmation. But overall, nobody is gonna fold bottom set in this spot, and discussing it is just wasting time, slows the game down, might lead to some annoying nitrolls, and really, we all got leaks, but looking for reasons to fold in spots like these won´t increase your winrate one bit longterm.

there are better spots to look at if one wants to fix his or her leaks.

If he's unlikely to have a set, what does he have is the question? Because the people recommending calling, based on seeing the Villain's hand, are saying he plays overpairs this way which is even more unlikely than sets.

Very few people at the table play a perfectly defined style 100% of the time.

He might play overpairs this way. We know he's capable of limping JJ+. And there are a lot more overpair combos than set combos. We lose to 6 sets. With the pot odds we need to beat like 4 combos. Between the 24 combos overpairs villain has x% of the time and the many combo draws villain has y% of the time, we can find more than enough combos to justify a call.

And if one villain has T8 now we're behind 2 combos of sets. If the omc even occasionally has overpairs and combo draws we are fine

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Grunch, cause it seems like a pretty obvious spot. Don't fold sets to OMCs because they like to limp overpairs to make sure an Ace doesn't come out and then go crazy with them post flop.

Sick read that you are 85% sure that one villain has T8.

Folding flopped sets is like folding KK pf. It's probably correct sometimes, but I'm definitely not good enough to do it.

This is of course pretty ridiculous. You're randomly putting someone on one hand based on a limp and one overbet. Heck, you're even 90 percent certain he has that particular hand. This kind of thinking may very well leads to things like folding bottom set for 110BB on a flop like this.

This is obviously a bad beat thread, not really worth a discussion. You learnt your lesson, next time don't fold. Sure, you will run into a bigger set a small percentage of the time, but that's poker.