Bluff when card dead? - Page 2 - Live Low-stakes No Limit Poker Forum - Live Poker Low-stakes NL

sao · 07-31-2012, 11:55 AM

What about a table change? The easiest path to $ in llsnl getting paid off for big hands and if you know that you are not going to get paid off at this table any more, go find one where they will not respect your raises. It also has the added benefit for you of feeling like you are starting a new session.

Seems a lot easier than developing bluff lines against Level 1 thinkers.

Shaffer · 07-31-2012, 12:21 PM

When you're card dead, get a seat change because your seat is obviously cold.

Duh.

timmay28 · 07-31-2012, 12:25 PM

Ask dealer to wash the cards. Immediately afterwards, announce you finally have a big hand and bluff all 3 streets... easy game.

Tamade · 07-31-2012, 01:52 PM

Thanks everyone for their insightful commentary, I know I can always count 2p2ers to show me the enlightened path.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty Bumwaters

When we make a play based on our perceived range we are engaging in level 3 thinking. In order for it to work our opponent has to perceive our range, which means he has to be on level 2. Furthermore our opponent has to have the discipline to follow through with his read (even some of the very best poker players lack such discipline at times). It's a rare combination in 1/2nl. This is why bluffing often doesn't work: it is a level 3 play.

In addition, it's more difficult to understand your perceived range than it is to understand your opponent's range since you have to filter your range through your opponent's thought process instead of your own. This is why many people end up bluffing in bad spots: they make a bluff that would work on themselves instead of one that will work on their opponent. They failed to understand their opponent--which is the whole point of the game--then some even go so far as to get huffy and puffy about it and berate the caller.

Anyway, there are spots to make these plays but they are few and far between due to the rare conditions that are required. One is (an) opponent(s) who think(s) on level 2 and have discipline. C'mon, how many players in 1/2nl have the discipline to fold a hand they would normally play even if they are capable of making a read? So first you have to have a target or targets. Second, you have to isolate the target(s). You don't want a level 1 player and/or undisciplined player getting in the middle of things and ruining your plan. Third, you have to have a tight/passive image. You only have an image against level 2 players--this is what is going to skew their perception of your range toward stronger hands than what you actually have. Fourth, they have to have a hand that is weak enough to fold to your perceived range. If you run into a big hand then all of the stars aligning up to this point goes out the window. You address one of the required conditions OP, but it is only when all four are met that your bluff will be successful.

This is so well thought out and spot on. Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poe

I smiled reading this because it reminded me of a post I made about 9 months ago- I can't believe how far I've come.

Anyways, OP, he is an example of your idea: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...lains-1149052/

Have fun

I really enjoyed reading that thread, thank you for sharing. Now that you've gotten better and presumably are playing at higher levels, do you see this kind of play from other villains?

dgiharris · 07-31-2012, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by venice10

I just suggest the easier route of just opening up your range. At worst, you're taking hands that are slightly -EV for you and playing them. Most of the time, the support you gain from having villains make mistakes against your new range will more than make this up.

+1

Poker is about exploiting our villains mistakes.

The biggest mistakes at 1/2nl are:

Villains are way too passive/trappy with their big hands
Villains have no clue about relative strength vs absolute strength
Villains will stack off with top pair regardless if the top pair is a 8
Villains call way too much
Villains don't raise enough preflop
Villains give odds with weak/trappy bets

So, we can exploit the above in several ways. One way is to open up our range and see a ton of cheap flops and draw when Villains give us odds.

I find that when a lot of players complain about being "card dead" that they really mean "Man, I haven't been dealt JJ+, AK, AQ in the last 25 hands! This deck is cold!!!!"

Winning poker is more than just being dealt big hands and stacking off.

I play 5 days a week and I've never been "card dead" for 8 hours. Yes, i've gone 8 hours without being dealt JJ - AA many times but I still ended many of those sessions up. In fact, many of my most profitable hands/sessions take place with hands THAT ARE NOT JJ - AA.

I had one session where I went 2 hours without being dealt one Ace or any two consecutive cards higher than a T or any pair. What made this a bad situation was that every single hand was being raised preflop because there were a "ton" of aggro players at the table. So, I folded for two hours until I got dealt SCs in position and action limped to me. So, I call, flop OESD + FD and end up getting all-in vs AA and KK that were trying to be "trappy" preflop thinking someone was going to raise for them. I won the hand and tripled up...

In the end, it changes nothing. Be patient and wait for your villains to make a mistake and just play your hands. If you are serious about being card dead for 8 hours, I suspect that your definition of card dead varies greatly from what most would consider card dead.

Rusty Bumwaters · 07-31-2012, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by venice10

I just suggest the easier route of just opening up your range. At worst, you're taking hands that are slightly -EV for you and playing them. Most of the time, the support you gain from having villains make mistakes against your new range will more than make this up.

Right, and if you haven't already you should learn to automatically account for how villains at the table affect the profitability of entering the pot with a given hand just as you would account for how position and stack size affect it's profitability. At the end of the day if we only enter pots in situations that figure to show a profit (and decide to enter them for a limp or a raise based on which option is more profitable) then we should be in pretty good shape.

I think it was Barry Greenstein who said there is a fairly sizable category of hands that are virtually neutral ev which we must play against good players because they increase the ev of our profitable hands due to the fact that they widen our range and make decisions more difficult for our opponents. That's obviously not necessary in 1/2nl, but it's a neat related idea worth noting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgiharris

+1

Poker is about exploiting our villains mistakes.

The biggest mistakes at 1/2nl are:

Villains are way too passive/trappy with their big hands
Villains have no clue about relative strength vs absolute strength
Villains will stack off with top pair regardless if the top pair is a 8
Villains call way too much
Villains don't raise enough preflop
Villains give odds with weak/trappy bets

I just wanted to add that these two points work in conjunction to form an important principle: Our opponents have the most trouble with hands they can't "see."

What I mean is that the villain who stacks off with top pair 8s does so b/c he can't "see" our overpair. It is a difficult hand to read b/c there is nothing on the board to indicate we have it. The same is true to a large degree for straights and sets. Flushes and trips, on the other hand, are staring them right in the face as they asses the absolute strength of their hand based on what's on board.

Thus, as a minor consideration when deciding whether or not to enter a pot, we should give connectedness of the hand slightly more value and suitedness slightly less value than we otherwise would when playing against level 1 players.

AKQJ10 · 07-31-2012, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by venice10

I just suggest the easier route of just opening up your range.

Hmmm, good point. Are you often raising limpers on your button with something like KJo, KTs, JTs, 77 for value?

I still think there's value in raising SCs here and representing Broadway hands on big-little-little or totally blank flops.

masaraksh · 07-31-2012, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKQJ10

Hmmm, good point. Are you often raising limpers on your button with something like KJo, KTs, JTs, 77 for value?

I still think there's value in raising SCs here and representing Broadway hands on big-little-little or totally blank flops.

yeah.... thats not even "light"

Tamade · 07-31-2012, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgiharris

+1
Winning poker is more than just being dealt big hands and stacking off.

I play 5 days a week and I've never been "card dead" for 8 hours. Yes, i've gone 8 hours without being dealt JJ - AA many times but I still ended many of those sessions up. In fact, many of my most profitable hands/sessions take place with hands THAT ARE NOT JJ - AA.

If you are serious about being card dead for 8 hours, I suspect that your definition of card dead varies greatly from what most would consider card dead.

I like this advice but not getting delt JJ-AA is not card dead by my definition. In my 8 hour session that I was referring to, I was consistently delt J2, 105, K2 type of hands. K5 suited UTG is not a playable hand for me UTG - maybe this is what you are referring to.

When I had a playable hand on the button like J7suited, I would face a 4bet situation, so I had to fold. As a reference, I typically raise any suited connector, suited 1 gapper or even something like K7 suited on the button versus limpers.

It was a bizzare night and it made me think about strategizing a way to combat a bad run on luck.

Little_blue · 07-31-2012, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by venice10

I just suggest the easier route of just opening up your range. At worst, you're taking hands that are slightly -EV for you and playing them. Most of the time, the support you gain from having villains make mistakes against your new range will more than make this up.

This is my thoughts almost exactly. Don't go overboard, but if you utg raise gets heads up or takes down the blinds, I add in KJs QJs and JTs A9s A8s...from ep...not much more. I also will reduce my raise sizes in general slightly, make 8 or 10 raises instead of 12 and 15 type thing...

I have been in games where I made a raise form Ep folded to the BB who folded JJ....saying it was not worth playing with you. I also been in games where I had the tightest image, 3 bet a $7 raise to $25 and it went 6 way...

It depends on the table, and all I do once I think the table is giving me sick respect is to increase my range slightly.

One of my favorite hands ever...table had started about 1hr before, Ive only folded...a player who raised a lot made his usual $7 raise, 2 callers, I had A2s in the BB...and squeeze to 30 every one folds with the last player showing AK. The original raiser looks at me and says "pair of deuces", the dealer (you got to love them) says "not him, he never 3 bets deuces here" so of course I could not resist and flipped over my deuce...

AKQJ10 · 07-31-2012, 03:56 PM

Opening your range in EP also implies that you consider your opponents to be fully position-aware. Most players, even at 1-2, are a little positionally aware, but not really when it extends to thoughts like, "You haven't played a hand in two hours." Much better to add your extra hands in position and stick to good hands OOP, unless you find that they're really folding to your EP activity a lot more.

sao · 07-31-2012, 04:02 PM

dgi and rusty (and others),

Do you guys ever switch tables? I appreciate the need to adjust your play to the enemies around you but are there cases where you decide that you are at a table where it is simply too much work to extract value and that pretty much any other table in the room will be easier?

I am all for developing an all-around game that can work at all kinds of tables but pushing myself into thinner EV situations seems to be less optimal than finding a fishier pond. (Note: I am a weekend 1/2 player. I am looking to improve but primarily interested in making money while having fun.)

Rusty Bumwaters · 07-31-2012, 04:49 PM

@sao Absolutely, if there is a better table then you have nothing to lose by asking for a table change. Maybe a seat opens up and you decide you have already developed good enough reads that you'd be losing value by changing tables. Making +ev decisions extends beyond the scope of a how we play our hands and into things like table selection, the time of day we play, the decision to straddle, or the decision to post the bb in ep when we first sit.

ggnoobs · 07-31-2012, 06:39 PM

one advice i heard for this is that when you DO decide to take advantage of your ultra nitty image, do it in a spot where you can represent aces basically..

i.e. squeeze over a raise and several calls, or if you're at an aggressive table, cold 4bet

stampler · 07-31-2012, 06:47 PM

grunch;

in general, at this level, this is a no.
1] you are risking too much relative to what you have to win
2] villians at this level tend to call too much, instead of fold too much at a 90:1 ratio, so this play far from exploits their tendancies, it plays into them.
3] they don't think like you do; if you havent shown a winning hand all night, then its because youre unlucky, not cuz you just picked up AA/ KK. they are more likely to call for this imagined reason, than less likely, which they would be if you were in thier shoes.
4] repping a hand to ppl who dont hand read is a form of kidding yourself.

i think this applies to 1/2 up to some 5/10 games.
make these plays when you move up to 10/20 NL