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Beaten Nut Flush Draw? Beaten Nut Flush Draw?

03-25-2015 , 11:45 PM
1/2 commerce.

Villain,a young armenian guy, is probably the best player at the table but has gotten some bad beats. Quite aggressive, takes down some pots sometimes uncontested. He likes to call down with second pairs and floats in dangerous boards, and preys on weakness. He has around 300. He is BB

Hero has a deteriorated tight image as he has been caught couple times bluffing. Has AT in BTN.

Fold to the CO who limps, I raise 8, SB folds, BB calls, CO calls.

Flop J310 There is 24 on pot before rake.

Check to hero, who bets 15. BB quickly calls, CO folds. There is in the pot like 50.

Im thinking he might have a J in this board, but also his tendency to float makes me think that that is it, he's just floating.

Turn comes J and he donks for 10 bucks. Is a 1/5 of the pot, I don't know what that means. Is unlikely that Villain has a J, and with a pair and NFD I have no choice more than call. I thought in a raise, but I don't know what I would do if he jams to my reraise. I call, and on the pot there is like 70.

The river comes a K completing my Nut flush.

Villain takes some chips like he is going to bet, thinks for about five seconds and then he checks.

Hero?

I will post results later.
Beaten Nut Flush Draw? Quote
03-26-2015 , 12:03 AM
Bet fold
Beaten Nut Flush Draw? Quote
03-26-2015 , 12:03 AM
I think its value time...bet 30.
(targeting all of his nonboat hands and allowing him to attempt steals)
I think he has a jack very often. A smaller flush relatively often. (these explain his weird turn donk)
If he raises he may be sensing weakness and stealing, so I call, unless its too big.
I think he leads boats on rivers almost always.
No reason why he would expect you to bet.
I think its too ambitious for him to expect you to have backed into such a strong flush if he has a boat. nh
Beaten Nut Flush Draw? Quote
03-26-2015 , 12:23 AM
I wouldn't always c-bet here.

There aren't too many terrible turn cards. You block the nut flush draw. You don't love seeing a few turns. K or Q turns can improve villains, but those cards also give you gut shots and 1/4 of them give you combo draws. You block the A for KQ draws. A 7 isn't ideal, but, anyway, there are trade-offs, and 3-way in the best position with the best second pair, you may want to shorten the hand and see a turn without building a pot.

C-betting is OK, especially with your read V will call down very light (so it serves a clear purpose to value bet) and the board does have a handful of draws, but I do think we can consider checking to get to the turn with a smaller pot and play poker in position.

It's close. I'd almost always c-bet AJ. I'd probably check T9. AT is on the border.

Calling the turn is good. Raising really does nothing (better than Tx doesn't fold, worse doesn't really call, and 3-bets can push you off your very strong hand). You do have a read that he'll call down light, but there really aren't that many likely worse hands here. If you really think he'll station like a madman with say KT, then you do need to raise.

I'd bet close to pot for value on the river. $60/soul read imo.
Beaten Nut Flush Draw? Quote
03-26-2015 , 01:04 AM
I agree Im rarely cbetting this. Hate getting raised with second pair top kicker and NBDFD
Beaten Nut Flush Draw? Quote
03-26-2015 , 02:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandar
I agree Im rarely cbetting this. Hate getting raised with second pair top kicker and NBDFD
NBDFD? No boat draw/flush draw?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willyoman
I wouldn't always c-bet here…
It's interesting the opinions saying cbetting here may bot be good. Is it? How often are they going to connect with the board? Although what Alexandar said has a point. A check raise in this spot and I may not know what to do. Also, thats why I just called on the turn.

In a similar hand previously to this one against the villain, I had KQ in the CO. He was SB. UTG there was a short stacker that just called. I bet 8, everyone calls. The flop came AQ7 rainbow.

Everyone checks, as I expect the short stacker always have an A here.

Flop came 5x, SB bets 10, the utg shortstacker folds!, I raise to 30 and he goes all in. I hate to fold (I hate this spots, I tend to call all in too much), but I fold, and he shows Q9.

So I have still this hand in my mind, thinking that he has it too, and Im thinking that probably is using the same line but with the goods this time.
Beaten Nut Flush Draw? Quote
03-26-2015 , 02:27 AM
lol thats supposed to mean Nut BackDoorFLush Draw i guess i shudve said BD NFD haha
Beaten Nut Flush Draw? Quote
03-26-2015 , 02:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DPCharly
NBDFD? No boat draw/flush draw?



It's interesting the opinions saying cbetting here may bot be good. Is it? How often are they going to connect with the board? Although what Alexandar said has a point. A check raise in this spot and I may not know what to do. Also, thats why I just called on the turn.

In a similar hand previously to this one against the villain, I had KQ in the CO. He was SB. UTG there was a short stacker that just called. I bet 8, everyone calls. The flop came AQ7 rainbow.

Everyone checks, as I expect the short stacker always have an A here.

Flop came 5x, SB bets 10, the utg shortstacker folds!, I raise to 30 and he goes all in. I hate to fold (I hate this spots, I tend to call all in too much), but I fold, and he shows Q9.

So I have still this hand in my mind, thinking that he has it too, and Im thinking that probably is using the same line but with the goods this time.

yea youre probably right although the goods often is a jack or a flush, I think when he checks river you can be pretty certain he didnt back into a boatsky, but I still fold if he check raises river ******edly big
Beaten Nut Flush Draw? Quote
03-26-2015 , 10:33 AM
Your stack is 100bb+? Bet/fold $35 to $50. Have you seen him bluff/raise or do you think he's capable? If so, bet $35 and call a reasonable raise.

Edit: Bet $40, $35 sounds so precise.
Beaten Nut Flush Draw? Quote
03-26-2015 , 10:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javanewt
Your stack is 100bb+? Bet/fold $35 to $50. Have you seen him bluff/raise or do you think he's capable? If so, bet $35 and call a reasonable raise.

Edit: Bet $40, $35 sounds so precise.
+0.5

Only half good advice. bet/fold is the right play. A river raise on a paired board at 1/2 no limit is NEVER a bluff. Never. Just friggen never. And even if there was a teeny tiny miniscule chance it could happen, it wouldn't be on a four-flush AND paired board. Zero chance a river check/raise is a bluff.

Oh, and don't bet less than $50
Beaten Nut Flush Draw? Quote
03-26-2015 , 10:39 AM
I hope you're not asking whether or not to bet.

How much you should bet and whether you should b/c or b/f is super dependent on your stack. So, you have...?
Beaten Nut Flush Draw? Quote
03-26-2015 , 05:14 PM
So, this is what happened:

Spoiler:
I checked back, almost sure he had the boat. I showed the A and he went on tilt: how can you check back that? And he shows KJ there was no reaso. To bet here, if we have the nuts, we get a decent pot, if we are beat, we lose more money. And i was suspicious of the same line he was using. So...


Beaten Nut Flush Draw? Quote
03-26-2015 , 05:35 PM
Saw results. Something is wrong
Beaten Nut Flush Draw? Quote
03-26-2015 , 05:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DPCharly
So, this is what happened:

Spoiler:
I checked back, almost sure he had the boat. I showed the A and he went on tilt: how can you check back that? And he shows KJ there was no reaso. To bet here, if we have the nuts, we get a decent pot, if we are beat, we lose more money. And i was suspicious of the same line he was using. So...


What an awful line by villain. 10$ turn bet lol.

And you missed a lot of value.
Beaten Nut Flush Draw? Quote
03-26-2015 , 06:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kekeeke
What an awful line by villain. 10$ turn bet lol.

And you missed a lot of value.
How can I missed value, if against this villain I knpw im beat?
Beaten Nut Flush Draw? Quote
03-26-2015 , 07:56 PM
if you know you're beat based on a read, then nice hand. But I can see other hands villain could have that would have called a river bet of the correct size.
Beaten Nut Flush Draw? Quote
03-26-2015 , 08:29 PM
What? He shows a semi-bluff earlier then checks the river here w/ a FH and somehow you "know" you are beat? How? What, again? Why didn't you put that you knew you were beat in the OP? Would have saved a lot of typing.
Beaten Nut Flush Draw? Quote
03-26-2015 , 08:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javanewt
What? He shows a semi-bluff earlier then checks the river here w/ a FH and somehow you "know" you are beat? How? What, again? Why didn't you put that you knew you were beat in the OP? Would have saved a lot of typing.
The only reason this hand is worth posting is because I was beat. Think about it. What i should have done though is to describe a little more about my history and read on the villain. I apologize if you feel frustrated. However, there are some interesting analysis that i will archive in case i have a similar situation another time with a different but readless villain. My apologies again.
Beaten Nut Flush Draw? Quote
03-26-2015 , 09:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DPCharly
The only reason this hand is worth posting is because I was beat. Think about it. What i should have done though is to describe a little more about my history and read on the villain. I apologize if you feel frustrated. However, there are some interesting analysis that i will archive in case i have a similar situation another time with a different but readless villain. My apologies again.
The tiny bet on the turn is really interesting.

There's another thread in one of the other forums here where the flop comes AKK and AA bets 1bb on the flop to induce a raise. But KK just calls. Then the turn is a blank and AA bets 1 bb again. Quads finally decides to raise and a little money goes in.

KK decides to shove on the ace river. Might as well get around to shoving money in the pot when you're beat.

Good for you for sniffing out that something was strange in this hand.
Beaten Nut Flush Draw? Quote
03-26-2015 , 09:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DPCharly
The only reason this hand is worth posting is because I was beat. Think about it. What i should have done though is to describe a little more about my history and read on the villain. I apologize if you feel frustrated. However, there are some interesting analysis that i will archive in case i have a similar situation another time with a different but readless villain. My apologies again.
There is a specific forum for bad beats.
Beaten Nut Flush Draw? Quote
03-27-2015 , 12:04 AM
I would have bet river for sure

Then when he raised it would be a tough fold lol
Beaten Nut Flush Draw? Quote
03-27-2015 , 08:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javanewt
There is a specific forum for bad beats.
This is no bad beat. I was beat all the way.
Beaten Nut Flush Draw? Quote
03-27-2015 , 08:47 AM
When a player of this 'type' all of a sudden bets small you should have alarm bells going off in your head. If you truly read the situation, then you were on your game here, nice!!

Always easy to type here, but I was thinking the same thing as the hand progressed .. Jx/flush on Turn trying to squeeze any chips out of you that he can. The fumbling/no bet on the River is out of character but unless you have a flush he may think you have no reason to call a bet here but you may be more prone to bet out based on history with you?

Folks here will jump on you for missed value, yes ... but whenever you consider a bet you need to consider what V will call with that you beat as well as V calling or raising with hands you lose against.

If you do bet out .. make it at least reasonable so that V wont see it as weakness and raise with something you do beat. How would you have proceeded with Jx here? If you bet 25-30, he may put you on Jx and raise you out with a smaller flush. So the bet has to be 'strong' with all your hands AND you need to be ready to deal with the raise before you bet.

Certainly I think we need to bet out here in most every spot, but if you do pick up on a vibe during a hand then you should go with it. Not sure what V really had .. perhaps KhJh .. but you do have an issue with the cards you have V showing Kd and Kd hitting the River.

If 'this' V has weak flush or Jx he probably would've put out a blocker bet and folded to a raise .. just like he wants you to do. Nice read .. I would've expected V to hit you up with a very large polarizing River bet in a hand that followed to 'make up' for his missed value here .. beware!! GL
Beaten Nut Flush Draw? Quote
03-27-2015 , 04:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by au4all
There's another thread in one of the other forums here where the flop comes AKK and AA bets 1bb on the flop to induce a raise. But KK just calls. Then the turn is a blank and AA bets 1 bb again. Quads finally decides to raise and a little money goes in.

KK decides to shove on the ace river. Might as well get around to shoving money in the pot when you're beat.
This is optimal play from KK, he's going to get a 50% table share of the gigantic bad-beat jackpot!
Beaten Nut Flush Draw? Quote
03-27-2015 , 09:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idontworkhere
+0.5

Only half good advice. bet/fold is the right play. A river raise on a paired board at 1/2 no limit is NEVER a bluff. Never. Just friggen never. And even if there was a teeny tiny miniscule chance it could happen, it wouldn't be on a four-flush AND paired board. Zero chance a river check/raise is a bluff.

Oh, and don't bet less than $50

I'm in agreement almost all the way.....Never ever ever ever is that a bluff at any less than 3/5 reg or 5/10 reg. 1/2 simply does not turn trip jacks into a bluff on a 4 flush board....ever.

having covered that, missed what the pot was but i think its time for thin value, maybe half to 1/3 the pot. You will get calls from trip jacks or a decently high and if you get re-shoved your out less money. I think a pot size bet would be about the worst line you could do here....besides checking.
Beaten Nut Flush Draw? Quote

      
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