Recently I was on the BTN in a 1/2 game when I picked up As7s and decided to just limp in after 3 players limped ahead. Usually I would raise this BTN but these players love to see flops and I felt if all 3 called my PF raise odds are 1-2 of them would connect with the flop in some way and my FE would be obsolete if I were to C-bet.

Player history

V1 is a young lady who has more balls then half the table combined. She is def spewy but has no fear when she has to put her stack in play (betting/calling) although she is a losing player. At time of hand she is sitting on $300.

V2 another lady older this time. Plays ABC poker and is somewhat of a calling station if she catches any piece of the board. She is sitting on about $240.

V3 folds to flop bet but I wanted to mention his limp PF and how it played I to my decision just to limp. He too is a CS and is sitting behind $160.

Hero is seen as a TAG who has been doing well this session and is sitting on a stack of $400.

Flop
Ad6s3s

Villain 1 fires out $8 from EP and Villain 2 calls from MP. V3 folds. So what's my play here? If I raise the only hand I get action from I feel is another weak ace (probably better kicker then me) or a spade draw. I decided to call and try and make the spade draw and if that doesn't come in I can get my Ace ****ty kicker to showdown for cheap. Is this a good line to take?

Thanks
-CF

Limped pot? Calling is fine as raising can be as well.

Very easy call.

Call - great spot to be in.

Even given table conditions I think raise > call pre.

AP call >>>>> raise.

I suggest hitting the flush or 2p on the turn.

Call is good.

If this was say Qs7h3s instead I would favor raising instead of calling.
In that case we can get all sorts of weaker queens to fold, which is great for us. We turn our pair of 7's into a winner sometimes even when we don't make a flush/two pair.
Sure sometimes we move people here off of weaker 7x but we aren't getting too much value from them anyway.

Where as here we are almost always only getting worse hands to fold, sometimes folding out dominated draws and rarely getting better to told to us if we raise.

An A on the turn or river changes almost nothing, so we shouldn't go too ham wild, and even a 7 isn't the best card for us as it completes a pretty common 54 for a straight draw. But we should be bet/calling either of these on turn most likely, and bet/folding them on the river often.

There are several ways to play this flop.

1) Call....you're basically trying to hit 12 outs. 9 to the flush and 3 to hit 2 pair. If you hit the flush you will most likely win the hand but very likely wont win more than the money they put in on the flop. Any clown can see you have the flush when they check to you on the turn and you make a nice sized bet.

2) Make a good sized raise...lets say raise to $40. This will win the pot the majority of the time. Most people aren't calling that raise without AJ or better. (unless you are a maniac, they should be folding anything less than 2 pair to that raise although we all know alot of people wont). If they call, you can shut down if you dont improve on the turn. They will never bet into you on the turn.

3) My favorite....a min raise. This is actually a play more for limit poker where you raise the flop to get a free card on the turn but it works very well in NL. People will have no idea what you have. A lot of low stakes players min raise the flop with a set here. They will never fold an ace to a min raise, but like option #2, they will almost never bet into you on the turn so you can check behind and take the free card like you would in a limit game if you miss the turn. You will just about never fold out a better hand like you will with option #2, but it also only costs you an extra $8 more than just calling. If you called the $8 flop bet and missed the turn, you would be very happy if they only bet $8 again on the turn and thats essentially what you made happen here but you also built the pot so when you hit your 12 outs you will win a bigger pot. They also won put you on the flush so easily when it comes.

Seems like a bit of a reach.
The overall idea of a minraise might be fine. I would never use it in my game, but to each their own. But I think that it's a little bit of fantasy land to think that they will fold when the pot isn't raised and smaller bets are going in (absolute, not relative) but will call when the bets are bigger after we've raised the flop and the flush comes in and we are still betting.

I don't "think" they will call bets after I min raise and the flush comes in. I know they will, because I do it a fair amount on boards like this. Nobody min raises a flush draw so they never put me on the flush.

As you wish.

Maybe the way that you play is specific to your game, in your location, with dynamics between you and other players that aren't present in other spots. Some of the things that you suggest don't always seem pretty far fetched.

Just saying.

In the last month Ive played in 12 different poker rooms from Ft. Lauderdale, to Naples to Tampa to Vegas to San Francisco.

Did you mean some of things I suggest ARE far fetched?

Yup.

I like a call to keep worse flush draws in there. Aren't really folding much better and getting redicolous odds with TP +NFD

Call, especially when V2 calls. Stay wide, keep them wide in a limped pot with oodles of worse draws. Keep in mind your 2p card completes the OESD so don't go nuts on that card if it peels off.

I initially thought this was a trivial raise OTF.

On reading responses, I can also see flatting. (If nothing else, when someone who raises too much thinks this is a flat, I should re-evaluate.)

I still think raising has merit:
V1 may jam it all in here significantly behind (e.g. with a flush draw or combo straight and flush draws).

V2 will likely call us with a pretty wide range. We're ahead of some of that, behind the rest but we have the NFD in our corner even if we're behind.

I don't think we're only getting called by better while folding out all worse. Given V descriptions, I welcome a 3b from V1 (and will jam it).

I also don't mind folding out worse that aren't going to put more money in the pot unless they bink. That's a win for us, not a lose.

The flush draw isn't disguised and if we spike 2P, it'll be a pretty wet board. Our implied odds are good, but not fantastic (unless V has a flush draw, in which case boosting the pot now helps with getting stacks in).

OTOH, flatting keeps our range wide. May get some more money from a weaker hand later on, and lets our position and skill advantage play out for longer.

No need to raise. We can stack weaker flushes if the flush card comes and we will know if our two pair is good if both V's check to us. V1 doesn't seem like the type that will fold very much so we are better off waiting to make our hand before we pile money in.

call every time and hope weaker draws catch up to stack them.


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Call.

If I have an overall win rate of 9BB/hr. A win rate of 13.5 BB/hr during peak times. A StdDev of 5.7 times my win rate. A session win percentage of 76% and in 850 hrs I have never lost more than 3 sessions in a row and Ive haven't lost more than 3 buy ins, then how far fetched can my ideas really be?

All this just means you are on an unreal heater, and your ideas (some of them) are indeed farfetched. Believe me, when you start to run bad (or even normal), some of the ideas you espouse in this forum will cost you more money than you would ever think was possible.

Ask GG (the geek) about his winrate this year.

I'm not saying this to jinx you, buddy, or make you feel bad. I've been where you are now. Unfortunately, I've also been on that cold, frigid Dark Side of the Moon.

EDIT: That being said, the particular idea you talk about in this thread ain't all bad, I also came from a limit background (only game in town when I started), but it really only has merit IF it will buy you a free river. Against some people it will, but trust me, your min raise is NOT the reason you are getting their stack when the flush hits. Just sayin'.

Im not getting their whole stack when the flush hits, but Im getting more than I would if I just call the flop and then the flush hits. Im also losing less when the flush doesnt hit because they check the turn almost every single time.

I also dont do it every time I have a flush draw. I mix it up. Not too long ago I min raised a FD on the flop in a raised pot and got to showdown cheaply. I ended up winning with TP (KQs vs TT). The next orbit I called a raise with a small par. The flop gae me a set and there was also a FD on the flop. I intentionally min raised the flop again and the same villain shoved on me with a small overpair.

For the love of god please raise

Standard raise size is 2.5x

This is another hand with a demarcation point. All the losing players are just calling and all the winners are raising. Do you think Phil Ivey isnt raising?

every hand you respond to separates the winners and losers supposedly

I think raising can be fine but I also think peeling and see a turn card IP can be fine. Think we would need a bit more range input from OP to feel definitive either way

No this is just the second hand ive said that.

Are you guys really playing so passively you dont even raise when you flop the world? If not this hand then do you even have a raising range?