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AKo in SB AKo in SB

10-24-2014 , 08:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javanewt
Funny thing is, I would have never considered completing in this spot when I first started playing, and I wouldn't do it against unknowns. I think a lot of poker is table/player dependent. I chose to do something different at a table full of players I'm comfortable with and know well.

No offense, Playbig2000, but I think it's awful to give advice when you can't be bothered to read the entire OP, whether you think it's relevant or not (how would you know if you didn't read it?).
There are very few absolutes in poker, but raising in this spot with 8 BB in the middle is one of them. It is an absolute must. If the flop comes 5 7 8 we now have to check fold after we decided to leave a ton of dead money in the pot with a hand which was by far the favorite to be the best hand pre. Particularly when you say a lot of these players call off light.
AKo in SB Quote
10-24-2014 , 10:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javanewt
That's a good point, johnnyBuz, but they are calling 100% pre-flop with any pair, any two face cards, any suited A, and most suited connectors or one-gappers, and they float a lot, so by raising I'm in the same position, which is fine. I know these guys well and it's a very profitable game.

As stated, I do raise this the majority of the time. (I would raise it 100% against players I was unfamiliar with.)

My question still is if I'm raising AK here every time from the SB, what else am I raising besides solid pairs or AQ? Or, is there no deception from the SB?
If they're calling $30-$50 raises pf with all those hands when they put you on a big hand, then why bother with deception? It sounds like they do a poor job at adjusting and don't even grasp the fundamentals. They may be thinking players but I think you're vastly overrating them.

It sounds like you're playing against players who will say "Oh she has a big hand. I call!" I wouldn't worry much about deception when I can raise and get so much value. You would have to think that you will get a lot of extra value after the flop for deception to be worth it. In this hand, you hit the flop and they all folded anyway despite your attempt at using deception.
AKo in SB Quote
10-24-2014 , 10:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javanewt
Thanks, gobbledygeek. Definitely not scared of someone with such poor reading comprehension (And I'm not new!)

Anyway, a few others (whom I do respect) understand the complete for deception occasionally, so I'm good.
Did you get those comments from live players? Most live players are confused enough that I wouldn't think much of their advice.
AKo in SB Quote
10-29-2014 , 07:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyzz
"I elect to complete"

^ Perfect
AKo in SB Quote
10-29-2014 , 08:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
^ Pretty sure I read somewhere (on 2+2 I think) that if everyone folded their SB blind they would have a higher winrate overall.
Hand I played last night:

Hero has A2 in the SB playing 1/2

UTG limps, MP1 raises to $12, MP2 calls, HJ calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

Flop ($72): JT8
Hero bets $15, UTG folds, MP1 raises to $45, MP2 calls, HJ folds, Button folds, Hero 3-bets to $100, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

Turn ($317): 9
Hero bets all-in for $400. MP2 calls $90.

River ($497): 3

Hero wins

Yea you don't always flop a flush, but I'd won plenty when I flop the nut flush draw as well. If you play in games where you get paid off when you hit (in this game you often do) you have better implied odds which allow you to call more pre-flop. You should call less pre-flop when the following conditions apply:

- You have a hand with reverse implied-odds (you are unlikely to make the nuts and your opponents will play hands that dominate you).
- There are players still to act pre-flop that are likely to 3-bet and make you lose your pre-flop call without actually seeing a flop
- Your opponents are likely to fold post-flop when you hit big and take the pot away from you when you have a small hand or draw.

Think about this - if you could see through your opponents cards and your opponents would call huge river bets with marginal hands, the best way to play no-limit holdem would be to see the river as cheaply as possible and then extract maximum value once you know you have the best hand.

I've played in games where the opponents are very open and honest about when they have great hands and play very straightforward. Playing a huge pot pre-flop with AKo is not something I love doing because it increases my variance while negating my skill advantage in reading my opponents. Last night I folded AK twice pre-flop after the pot was 3-bet. At 1/2 cash games I find that it's rare for players to 3-bet pre-flop without a pocket pair or AQ+.
AKo in SB Quote
10-29-2014 , 08:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulls_horn
Yeah, I read it. And still disagree. I agree with whoever said we should either raise or fold pre.

For instance, if I get 22 in SB with say 4 limpers, I'm tossing out 4bbs. Two or three of the limpers'll call and two will fold (believe it or not, it happens all the time). Now I see a flop with 12-14bbs instead of just 5-6, with half as many opponents. Easier to shovel chips in when I hit, easier to try to steal when I miss (which seldom works with all the stations I see lol, fml).

While it costs more to see a flop this way, I feel I save money cuz I dont play as many wildly speculative (and possibly more troublesome) hands. Also, its not as hard to meet the pot requirements for promotions.
This doenst really make sense.

So you would raise 4 bb after 4 limpers? In most casino cash games most limpers will call for this price. Its OK if you want to be aggressive and are good post flop, but you are mostly just putting yourself in tough spots as you will be OOP and obviously all flops will have 3 over cards unless you hit a set...you also admit it seldom works because of all the calling stations...so then how is raising pocket 2s from SB a good tactic?

Also, raising or completing in SB with 22, has nothing to do with 'saving money cuz i dont play as many wildly speculative hands'.

You can complete SB with hands like 22 and fold hands like J2
AKo in SB Quote
10-29-2014 , 08:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jt000
This doenst really make sense.

So you would raise 4 bb after 4 limpers? In most casino cash games most limpers will call for this price. Its OK if you want to be aggressive and are good post flop, but you are mostly just putting yourself in tough spots as you will be OOP and obviously all flops will have 3 over cards unless you hit a set...you also admit it seldom works because of all the calling stations...so then how is raising pocket 2s from SB a good tactic?

Also, raising or completing in SB with 22, has nothing to do with 'saving money cuz i dont play as many wildly speculative hands'.

You can complete SB with hands like 22 and fold hands like J2
Agreed. I'd also feel so sick if I raise 4bb from the SB with 22 only to get 3-bet and fold and see a 2 on the flop.

In in a limped pot you can sometimes get stacks in when you flop a set. If I flopped a set I'd lead out for 5BB from the SB hoping for a few calls and then a raise (happens to me a lot) to make up for the lack of a pre flop raiser. It's a win-win:

When you don't hit a set you only lose $2
When you hit a set you still win big (average $100)

Hit set 8 to 1 - EV = $9.33/hand

Do you see why this is more profitable than:

When you don't hit a set you lose $25 (pre-flop raise plus hopeless c-bet on the flop).
When you hit a set you win big (average $150)

Hit set 8 to 1 - EV = -$5.56 if c-bet never works
AKo in SB Quote
10-30-2014 , 09:52 AM
People still complete AK in sb?? Is there ever a reason you would ever ever do that?? How could calling in sb with a hand that has to hit to be good ever be +ev?

I mean OOP, no aggression, you lose skill edge cause OOP and miss value with AK.

Idk I think its very bad completing sb.
AKo in SB Quote
10-30-2014 , 10:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RainDownChips
How could calling in sb with a hand that has to hit to be good ever be +ev?
So, after multiple limpers you wouldn't complete with any pocket pair?
AKo in SB Quote
10-30-2014 , 10:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RainDownChips
People still complete AK in sb?? Is there ever a reason you would ever ever do that??
actually yes there are reasons why you would do this, but this is not one of them. If there was a lagtard whale in the bb and he was putting together raising chips and you were 100bb eff why not complete then shove over him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainDownChips

How could calling in sb with a hand that has to hit to be good ever be +ev?
when there are 8 limpers and we have 7s8s in the sb is one example of many. Do you fold or raise everthing that needs to be "hit"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainDownChips

I mean OOP, no aggression, you lose skill edge cause OOP and miss value with AK.

Idk I think its very bad completing sb.
yes it is bad completing sb with K8 and Q7 type hands that we get most of the time and a million other combos but not with small pocket pairs and multi way hands when the table and pot allows us to complete.
AKo in SB Quote

      
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