A stranger is being shown around a village that he has just become part of. He is shown a well and his guide says "On any day except Friday, you can shout any question down that well and you'll be told the answer" . The man seems pretty impressed, and so he shouts down: Why not on Friday? and the voice from in the well shouts back: Because on Friday, its your day in the well.

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I have said I would do one of these things for a while (maybe 12 months), and since this weekend I am a combination of sick, home alone, and have no university work pressing me, I think now is as good a time to do one of these things as any other time.

For those who don’t post in the chat thread (where I am still semi-active) Im a 24yo guy from Australia who played live cash for a few years for a living, came second in a decent sized tournament, and am now looking to quit poker for a living and finally graduate and get a real job. While there are a number of people that could do a well that play poker a lot better than me, the reason I have wanted to do so is because I think my story is a pretty good example of how poker can definitely be a bad thing for a lot of people, and if that’s not in control, things can end very badly, even if you are a winner in the games you play. Throughout the last seven years since moving out of home, I have gone through a very good and very bad things, and on the whole think my story is a good example why anyone going through college should basically NEVER consider playing poker for anything more then subsidiary income, and that for the most part, college kids would be better off never coming across poker.

Im sure a lot more information will come out as the thread runs its course, but general cliffnotes of my life the last seven years would go something like

- Born in a rural town, normal childhood nothing out of the ordinary. I was a pretty nerdy, antisocial kid through high school if anything. In the last year of high school, my parents split up, with my Dad moving out and living isolated by himself, with me being split between who was “my” parent and my three siblings was siding with Mum.

- Move from country town 140 miles from home to Perth, Australia for university, first time moving out of home. Over the next year I became a bit of a bad kid, drank too much, didn’t put as much effort into university as I should have and also became a little bit more distant from my family, not returning calls and not visiting as often as I should

- 2008 I find poker, begin playing for free online and in small stakes live cash games and tournaments. Spend more hours playing poker then studying, grades begin to fall, become even more distant from my family.

- At the end of 2008 my father, who while I grew up I was very close to, chose to commit suicide, which obviously cut me very deeply. The next year I became even more of a social hermit then I was before, spending multiples days in bed because I never felt a good reason to get up and would feign excuses to save having to go outside or be in any prolonged social setting. I began failing school, and by the end of 2009 I chose to take a year off school in an attempt to get my head straight, which I probably made at the time so I could play more poker.

- In 2010 I got done for driving under the influence of alcohol and lost my licence. Its something I hadn’t gone out to do, and still regret it. Because my job at the time required me to be able to drive, I chose at this point to take the money I saved from poker and work and make an effort to play live LHE and NLHE for a living, with a plan to go back into uni part time in 2011.

- Poker starts ok, I had a decent hourly ($20ish for NLHE in a 2/3 game, $40ish in the 10/20 LHE games) and things seemed fine. While my bankroll was pretty small for how I was playing (maybe $15k) I had money received from the will that seemed as a good backup if things went pear shaped, with a plan to quit if I ever busted my “poker” money. However, a combination of reduced volume, some runbad, and some increased spending habits, and the fact that I singlehandedly killed LHE in Perth, and I began to slowly eat into my non-poker money. At this point again, uni began to fall out of my life, and again I withdrew from university classes growing more disilluisioned with tertiary education.

- Eventually 2012 I got my life turned around properly. A few people in my life managed to convince me that poker wasn’t the be all and end all, and that I should get back to university properly, which I have since and should be graduating within the next 18 months.

- After that I was fortunate enough to win a few small tournaments in Perth for four figure scores, and small five figure scores. This came to a head in November when I came second in an ANZPT event for six figures, which for me was life changing money, since I felt I could use “my money” to finally pay my way through university. Since then, I have played very little poker outside of ANZPT tournaments because of player of the year equity, and am back at university having changed degrees and should hopefully have graduated midway through 2014, a mere 7.5 years after I started a three year course.

So feel free to ask me about dealing with suicide, personal depression and anxiety, being a bit of a social reject, living in Australia and playing poker for a living I guess

Funny title, and the reason I say that is because I am approaching my 10K post and I thought about possibly writing something and your title was one of the subjects... go figure.

If you had of posted more you could have got to 10k before I got to 6200 and got in first :P

As well as that, I thought you deleted the thread because I couldn't find it, then realized it had been stickied. As you do

Anyway, for those who want a bit of a longer example of how I felt after I my Dad died, this was a post word for word I made on another forum in a thread relating to suicide about 6 months after my Dad died (so around 4 years ago now)

Had/have been debating whether to speak about my incident with suicide, so yeah, here goes...

Seems like you have made it through some very tough and trying times - and seems like you are on the path best for yourself going forward now. That is good to hear.

Specifically what about poker gets to you the most? I realize such poker hassles are nothing compared to what you went through with your dad. Is poker something you associate with only those tough times - or would you enjoy still playing recreationally?

I think what I hate about poker is how it just completely changes people from before they start to play to when they are at the table, as well as their outlook after an amount of time of playing serious hours. This applies both to those people I know outside of poker, who are wonderful company at a bar or a sports game, that are horrible to be around when they are playing poker, specifically when they are losing, as well as people who's entire perspective on life has changed after playing for a living for a long period.

I still enjoy poker in a way, the challenge etc... and would play socially if there was a good game and I had nothing else on, but I think a part of me holds onto the belief that maybe if I had never found poker/spent as much time away from my family then perhaps my Dad would still be here, and because of that I still project negative feelings onto poker that otherwise wouldn't be there had that not happened.

Seems like you had everything in place to become a professional besides playing in america. Little bit of money and a inheritance. Maybe you didn't have the mental makeup. Plenty of people have the money but not what it takes. Then you got people who have what it takes but no money.

I would still remix your title "You shouldn't play for a living unless you have what it takes".

I don't think it was a lack of games that meant I couldn't play for a living. Even though the Perth games are relatively small, playing in Melbourne and Sydney where the playing pool is larger was definitely possible.

The "you shouldn't play for a living" isn't the fact I couldn't hack it playing and beating the games, but that I did for a while, won relatively well over the time frame in terms of $$$ per hour, but the tedious nature of the grind wore me down, and will a lot of other people, and that I wouldn't recommend anyone from going down that road.

The kicker is that if you give up college for poker, and after a few years burn out and decide you want out, you might not be fortunate enough as others to still have as many options now that you have been in poker for 3-5 years. College might not accept you again, your resume is going to have an awkward hole in it, and its very possible you have less funds then what you started the venture with, even if your shot was "successful" in that you won over the journey.

Main point I am trying to make, is that even if you are a successful player, you will likely not leave poker in better shape then you started in it. And this doesn't even begin to mention the 80%ish (at a guess) who leave with a broken bankroll having been spat out by the game.

I guess you will never know if you have what it takes unless you try, but from my experiences I recommend not even bothering to find out.

What was the tournament (entry/format/location/etc.) that you scored the big cash in?

ANZPT Melbourne 2012. I finished second but did a deal that got me more then what I would have got if we just played it out.

http://www.pokernews.com/live-report...ost.210692.htm

Nice score.

Your thread comes off a little pretentious. Kind of like " if I didn't like it, you won't. " Especially considering you only played 2/3 & 10/20 and admittedly lost most of your bankroll towards the end due to " not playing enough, run bad, and expensive spending habits "

Not hating or anything, glad you got a nice score and found a path more to your liking. Just saying what I think is truth. Maybe a thread title of " why playing for a living isn't for everybody or something along those lines would of been better than " you shouldn't "

well...you seemed like a good guy when we've met.


do you feel comfortable posting win rates and hours played at your varying cash game levels?

The aim of the thread isn't to try and stop people from playing poker if they really want to do it. What I am trying to get across is that if you go the wrong way about playing for a living like I did, becoming very anti-social, not seeing family as often as I should, its probably not optimal for most people, particularly if you think of poker as a long term solution to make money.

If people want to play as a side income part time while working or going through school, fantastic, more power to you. But the aim isn't to prevent that from happening, but to not let what happened to me happen to others (namely letting a college education nearly slip through my fingers, as well as losing family which may or may not have been related to how much time I spent playing poker compared to how much time I lost with them.

For the vast majority of readers, poker will be a fun hobby, something to do on the weekend, but like any form of gambling, it can become addictive to the point where it can detiorate existing relationships, which is what I really want everyone to avoid.

I would have loved to make "Don't play poker for a living if you are fortunate enough to have a college education or a high paying 9-5, but if you have no other options, don't mind the grind and have a decent bankroll then knockyourself out" but I felt it was too long

As an aside, the money lost wasn't so much I ran bad or played bad, but simply tried to put university first again ahead of poker while still doing both, and I couldn't do both full time without getting rid of one or the other. Thankfully, thanks predominately to some good fortune, I can get rid of poker in the shorterm, get uni done, and then decide if I want to play poker or use my degree and get a real job, which I will probably do the later.

my 2000th post, so you have to believe it.

let this thought go mate. it's not true and no good can come from it.

what are the big principles or concepts you've learned about being successful at poker.....

- technically for tournaments
- psychologically for tournaments
- technically for cash games
- psychologically for cash games

what do you focus on when you sit down at the table

Thanks, Im still annoyed at the person at my table who asked you to move in that satellite because you were "interrupting"

I would, but most of my data is on my old laptop. I will confirm when I get around to cranking that up, but at a rough guess at the moment

2/3: I didn't play that many recorded hours, but I think I ran at around $22 in a 2/3 200max game for around 400-500 hours.

2/5 300: Probably a couple thousand hours, maybe in the high 30's

2/5: 500: They changed the structure, though my rate remained around the same

Limit: I think I ran at about 30-35 per hour, or 1.5 big bets per hour, which for how highly raked that game was was ridiculous.

However, I did eventually kill that game because

1) I didn't check down HU with the fish. Because of that, the other regfish felt they had to bet with the fish to try get an edge.

2) I was a younger guy (most the limit crowd were 50+) and I was a bit of a dickhead when I first started playing

3) I was a lot more agro (mostly correctly) then others in multiway pots (such as raise/capping the nut flush draw 4 ways+) which lead to a lot more king maker pots

4) People didn't want to play short-handed with me, and because we couldn't start a 6 handed game with me in it, games ran from every day to every second day to once a week to never

All of this, combined with a nice boomswing at the end where I won at 10big bets an hour for 100 hours and the game was dead

Il try to post my proper results when I get a chance

Thanks

The largest problem when it first happened at my Dads funeral a number of promos were given for Australian depression awareness site Beyond Blue, which basically tries to encourage the general population to be aware of the symptoms of depression and help prevent depression related injuries and suicides.

Now, we wouldn't be promoting these things if it wasn't true, so I had it in my head that what happened with my Dad was preventable, which meant that it either my own fault, or my families and friends, which basically for 6 months led to a horrible paper/scissors/rock game where I never quite knew exactly what to make of it all.

Just like any pot where your friends convince you to chalk it up as a cooler, there is always going to be that residual thought of perhaps maybe something could have been different.

All of these things really fall under both, so in no particular order

- Capped ranges and how to make sure you aren't playing with one too often.

- Balanced ranges and their application to live games (live cash = very little) tournaments a little bit more but it depends on the villain of course

- Gaining a true understanding of how much the buyin means for your opponent. Originally I used to just kind of float through low level games hoping that a better understanding of preflop shove ranges would get me by, but its really criminal how little information some people try gather in live poker, particularly with the increased usage of music and iPads etc... in live games.

- Making sure I actually care. There have been a number of times where I have literally just not cared for a tournament and lit $50-$400 on fire just because I didn't want to play anymore. I have quite a large difference between my A game and my C game (let alone my F game) as I think a lot of people do, and while its pretty simple stuff, deciding to just pack up and go home is a skill.

Assuming for live cash

- Who do I know, who don't I know, as well as physical traits that might give them away for either a good player or a bad player, tight or loose etc...

- Who has the smaller denomination chips (In Perth they have this silly system with a chip draw holding about 30 stacks and a limited number of $5 chips for cash games. As such, its quite easy to see who has won the recent middling pots, who are usually the better players winning pots in the $40-$80 range with raises and cbets postflop into 1 or 2 people.

- Stack sizes and notably total count for the table. I have a base amount for how much I want on the table for a given time of day (start of day whatever I can get, later in the night deeper the better)

- Is there a better table (of course)

For a tournament, all of those (minus change table obv) plus

- Who rocked up early, who dawdled in late (the earlier they arrive, the fishier for the most part)

- Who has music on, who is treating this small tournament like its their last dollar

- Any irregular betsizing tells (6x opening, betting pot+ post). I try and watch this in cash, but generally with deeper stacks and more multiway action, there is greater scope for more creative play without being too unusual or important.

Its all pretty simple stuff, but a lot of people are robbing themselves when they don't do it. Fact is edges are pretty small these days and getting smaller, so any you don't take up is just lighting money on fire.

Oh, and to add to the response to Stim (cant edit now)

I didn't post it in the OP, but I didn't eventually cap myself at 2/3, but played a lot more hours at 2/5, 5/5 and 5/10 when it ran. I cant remember exactly when 2/3 "died" at Perth but I think it was mid 2010

Anyway, Im off for a short nap and will be back in about 5-6 hours (since its 7am and all). Any questions Im sure Il get back to when I get up.

I am a college grad, so obviously I see value in college (or maybe I did it because I was told by my parents), but I really don't think "going to college" is like the magic gateway to better life as you seem to imply in your intro.

I don't disagree with the conclusion that poker really isn't something that most people should choose as a career, but I think more clarification would strengthen your premise.

Question, so how many hours of live cash game have you played?

Ashley, powerful story. You've forgiven your family, I hope that you finally forgive yourself. Speaking as a father, I would never want my children going around carrying guilt for what I did. I'm confident that your father did not want that either.

Peace.

And back

Firstly, I got a very nice PM from someone (not sure if they want to stay anon or not) but if they are reading this thanks, I really appreciate it)

To the questions

Hi Richard

While I don't think going to college is going to be a magic gateway, if you have been fortunate enough to have the chance to go to tertiary education, and are already some way into a degree, then I think dropping it all to take up live cash as a living is a very poor idea.

I think a lot of people see the short term benefits of playing poker (being your own boss, have a lot of disposable income compared to the average student) and overlook where they either could be or want to be in five years when they make the decision to go pro. If there are people who already have chosen to go down the live poker pro path, then I hope they still maintain the family and friend relationships they would have kept if they still were either in school or in a 9-5 job.

In hindsight, maybe "don't let poker take over your life" would have made a better title, since it wasn't necessarily the playing for income part of poker that ruined the second and third years of uni for me, but playing poker and making it of higher importance then study and family.

Sadly I think I have thrown out the old laptop that had all my data on it, and cant find an updated version on this laptop, but if I had to guess

~ I would have played around 1000 hours before keeping records, and I fairly certain I started keeping records in late 2009

~ Since then probably 4000-5000 hours of live cash if you include some of the smaller 1/1 type homegames. It might even be a bit more (I used to frequently play ~20 hours sessions on a Friday night through to Saturday evening, go home sleep for 12 hours and start again Monday lunchtime and play another 18 hours) definitely not the best for social life.

Thanks for the words, and the chance to use the forum as a chance to hopefully warn other people from not going through what I did.

What are you going to study at university? What career path do you see yourself doing? Are there any goals you have set out for yourself?