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| Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies. |
06-30-2012, 04:36 PM
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#1
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see my coaching listing
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: 79.17% dead, most likely
Posts: 14,298
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54s OTB, Limped Pot: I Make My flush--Now What?
Read on villain: He is a 40-ish blinged out Vietnamese/American, whose English is heavily accented. He's wearing a few gold rings with diamonds, a bracelet with diamonds, and has one diamond stud ear ring.
I have seen him make several medium-sized bluffs. Probably 5. The reason I know that these were bluffs is because when his opponent folded, he proudly flipped his hand each time, slammed it on the table, and said, "Ha! I got nothing. I bluff you!" Most of these were raised pots where the initial raiser had shown weakness at some point during the hand, or where he was the initial raiser and he barreled air twice (I never saw him triple, and I did see him appear to give up on a double barrel bluff that was called; he just check/folded the river). His bet sizing was usually around 3/4 to pot when he was bluffing, noticeably bigger than his value bets.
He is also a flush miner. I saw him play three flushes to showdown--he won with J6s and Q2s in limped pots, and lost a stack size pot with 52s when he was flush over flushed in a raised pot in which he had called OTB after 2 other callers.
When first into the pot, villain sort of telegraphs the playability, not the strength, of his hand with his preflop bet sizing. He limps suited trash and the other trash he plays, he open raises to $7 with suited connectors and one-gappers, small to mid pockets, and most broadway hands, and he raises to $12 with AQ+. I think, but am not sure, that he would limp behind the suited connecting stuff he would open raise to $7.
The lightest I saw him raise limpers was with 88, which he raised to $12 after 2 limpers.
Effective Stacks: $200
Hero is on the button with 5  4
UTG and UTG+1 fold, everybody thereafter limps, so 4 limpers to me, I limp behind, SB completes, BB checks.
Flop ($13): K  T  5
Checks to Me, I bet $12, BB calls, folds to villain in the cutoff who calls.
Turn ($46): A
BB checks, cutoff leads for $60, I think for a while and call, BB folds.
River ($166): A
Villain immediately says all in, and has me covered, I have $126 behind, so it's $126 to me to win $292.
Anybody fold either the turn or the river? Anybody shove the turn?
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06-30-2012, 04:46 PM
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#2
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: California
Posts: 10,052
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Re: 54s OTB, Limped Pot: I Make My flush--Now What?
I snap call, his lead ott looks like KxQ  , his river shove really doesn't mean strength. SPR is under 1.
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06-30-2012, 04:48 PM
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#3
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adept
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Earth
Posts: 750
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Re: 54s OTB, Limped Pot: I Make My flush--Now What?
When you flatted the turn what was your river plan?
I like shoving the turn. If he has a better flush we're just losing on the river anyway. We're getting in ahead vs his two pair combos though. I think it's pretty likely he flopped a gutshot with broadway cards, turned pair of Aces and the other card is a hi spade where he'll call your ai behind too.
AP, I call the river based on his image. The insta shove also seems like he's a little scared, like shoving with trip Aces will make you fold any hand.
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06-30-2012, 06:00 PM
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#4
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grinder
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 537
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Re: 54s OTB, Limped Pot: I Make My flush--Now What?
The overbet ott doesn't fit his sizing for either a bluff or a value hand, but the fact that he has shown he likes to bet smaller for value suggests that this is not a value hand.
Maybe a hand he's trying to protect vs all of the scare cards that complete 4 straights and 4 flushes otr...something like AT (AK he would raise pre).
Could also be something like KxQs, KxJs where he doesn't really have a made hand but has a semi-bluff and it trying to apply max pressure. He could also have A5 and be trying to protect, though it's hard to imagine he's calling the flop w/that hand
Any paired river is going to hurt us b/c villain could have 2 pair and either be afraid of being counterfeited or you hitting trips, or he hit a full house. 4straight rivers can also hurt our action vs 2pair, as can 4spade rivers (which also could have beat us). Then again, if we should shove presumably we're not getting any more value against 2 pair anyway since we are clearly repping a flush
We certainly can't fold and whether we call or shove we are at the threshold of committing our stack. If we call then we can only fold really bad rivers like a 4th spade, but even then we might be getting bluffed and won't want to fold. Since there are a lot of rivers that either beat us or lower our likelihood of getting paid off I prefer a shove over a call. The Vietnamese dude doesn't appear to have a flush and if the co wakes up w/a flush then it's a cooler b/c there is no way we can find a fold ott or otr regardless of what line we take
edit: oh yeah and it's a little more likely we get paid off on a turn shove b/c we bet the flop and villains may find that odd w/a fd. That may be why Vietnamese guy is betting the turn in the first place
Last edited by Rusty Bumwaters; 06-30-2012 at 06:08 PM.
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06-30-2012, 06:28 PM
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#5
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Turning Stone
Posts: 14,908
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Re: 54s OTB, Limped Pot: I Make My flush--Now What?
Did he look at the river card before saying all-in?
How quick is "immediately"? Gonna need to be a little more specific here.
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06-30-2012, 06:41 PM
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#6
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see my coaching listing
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: 79.17% dead, most likely
Posts: 14,298
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Re: 54s OTB, Limped Pot: I Make My flush--Now What?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SABR42
Did he look at the river card before saying all-in?
How quick is "immediately"? Gonna need to be a little more specific here.
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Yes he looked.
Immediately = < 2 seconds after the dealer tabled the river.
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06-30-2012, 06:48 PM
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#7
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Turning Stone
Posts: 14,908
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Re: 54s OTB, Limped Pot: I Make My flush--Now What?
Does he know how much you have behind (not that much)?
It's close, I call.
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06-30-2012, 07:17 PM
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#8
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see my coaching listing
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: 79.17% dead, most likely
Posts: 14,298
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Re: 54s OTB, Limped Pot: I Make My flush--Now What?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SABR42
Does he know how much you have behind (not that much)?
It's close, I call.
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Yeah, he does. We're sitting right next to each other, obv.
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06-30-2012, 08:00 PM
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#9
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: SI, NY
Posts: 11,265
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Re: 54s OTB, Limped Pot: I Make My flush--Now What?
All the people saying call, what do you expect him to turn over that we beat?
We lose to houses too, and keep in mind virtually any combo is possible, it's a limped pot.
$60 on the turn and $126 are "serious" 1/2 NL bets, people may be apt to stick in limps or calls of $12 preflop very liberally but not so much on later streets for the larger amounts we see here. He doesn't have KJo in this situation. What are we beating that he'd play this way?
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06-30-2012, 08:42 PM
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#10
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adept
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 724
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Re: 54s OTB, Limped Pot: I Make My flush--Now What?
Quote:
Originally Posted by eldiesel
When you flatted the turn what was your river plan?
I like shoving the turn. If he has a better flush we're just losing on the river anyway. We're getting in ahead vs his two pair combos though. I think it's pretty likely he flopped a gutshot with broadway cards, turned pair of Aces and the other card is a hi spade where he'll call your ai behind too.
AP, I call the river based on his image. The insta shove also seems like he's a little scared, like shoving with trip Aces will make you fold any hand.
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I agree.
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06-30-2012, 09:06 PM
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#11
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old hand
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,563
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Re: 54s OTB, Limped Pot: I Make My flush--Now What?
Did he check his hole cards when the turn fell?
I shove the turn here. I'm going broke against described villain w flush over flush esp with the A and K on board. Although you have seen him flush mine, that doesn't mean he necessarily has spades here. Because he flush mines, he is probably calling your shove with the naked Q/Js. He also probably calls with most 2p/set hands and made broadway. Because you led the flop (as opposed to c/c), villains are less likely to believe you were drawing.
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06-30-2012, 09:11 PM
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#12
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see my coaching listing
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: 79.17% dead, most likely
Posts: 14,298
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Re: 54s OTB, Limped Pot: I Make My flush--Now What?
No, he didn't check his cards when the turn fell. He bet it on the fast side, as if he had a plan for the turn. The turn came down, he paused maybe 3-5 seconds, said "sixty" and then cut out the chips and pushed them across.
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06-30-2012, 09:19 PM
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#13
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see my coaching listing
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: 79.17% dead, most likely
Posts: 14,298
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Re: 54s OTB, Limped Pot: I Make My flush--Now What?
Eldiesel, I tanked on the turn because I was thinking through both the turn and the river. But I don't want to potentially influence the discussion ITT by discussing my plan. I'll discuss the rationale behind my turn and river actions when I post results.
I had two of my IRL poker playing friends read my OP at a BBQ I attended today. One is an OK tournament player who plays lag, the other is a good tag who plays more cash than tourneys. The tourney lag says it is a fist pump snap call on the river, maybe a turn shove. The good tag agrees exactly with SABR and says it is close but he calls.
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06-30-2012, 09:41 PM
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#14
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old hand
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,563
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Re: 54s OTB, Limped Pot: I Make My flush--Now What?
I really don't see the merit in flatting the turn bet. He doesn't really have air here ever so at the very least he is semi bluffing a draw. Although his bluffs have been sized bigger than his value bets, this is an overbet so it is not in line with his previous bluff sizing either. He may value bet bigger on a wet board like this. A spade on the river will either hit villain or freeze your action and you don't like the board pairing (as it did) either. What was your plan if the river was a total brick? As I said, you are not super deep and since you did the betting OTF, he may not believe the spade hit you so I think he calls you with a lot of his range. What do you think is the best hand he would fold to a turn shove?
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06-30-2012, 09:48 PM
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#15
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adept
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: new england
Posts: 735
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Re: 54s OTB, Limped Pot: I Make My flush--Now What?
I kinda want to shove the turn, but don't see what we get value from? A pair of kings or queens with a big spade. But then on the other hand being that he's a bluffer we fold out all of his weak value hands and bluffs. So I guess the flat is okay cause we can fold the river if the fourth spade falls.
The river is pretty close at best but again if he has a river bluffing range which he does from our previous reads I guess this a call all day.
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