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5/5 Why did I get called down by K-high? 5/5 Why did I get called down by K-high?

12-17-2014 , 12:23 AM
I refuse to watch the entirety of that hand replayer. You might as well post a youtube video in which you describe the hand, for all I care.

The last time I saw a guy make a hero call with king-high and win a pot, it was a evangelical pothead (that is, pushing a pro-pot agenda in his table talk) who called a $200 river bet, so my first question would be: was your opponent high?
5/5 Why did I get called down by K-high? Quote
12-17-2014 , 12:53 AM
That is a bad K high too.

I am someone who has developed a reputation in my circle for accurate, but sick river calls like that and this is totally unexplainable to me. I cannot imagine thinking K5 is good often enough to call there. The line seems suspect sure, but that line will be a completed hand sometimes or will be bluffing with better than a bad K-high that it seems completely unexplainable to me.

Protect your "hand"/computer screen.
5/5 Why did I get called down by K-high? Quote
12-17-2014 , 02:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgiharris
I have come up with a new poker term that I like to call "The Awesome Possum"
Your "The Awesome Possum" theory (or as I'd like to call it, the "Big Swinging Dick" theory) is quite interesting and entertaining.
I wouldn't doubt it contributed a bit to his decision making.

Thanks, I'll keep it in mind and make sure to keep my pants on next time I play
5/5 Why did I get called down by K-high? Quote
12-17-2014 , 02:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by au4all
Poker is all math.
You're absolutely right. A couple of months ago, I wouldn't have any idea of what you were talking about. I just finished a poker course that centered around Game-theory-optimal play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by au4all
When you bet half-pot your nuts-to-air ratio should be 3-1. You should have 3 value hands for every bluff.
This makes total sense to me now. Thank you for the reminder.

I do think that I have a good balance of value hands in this situation. Without working out all the combos, I do believe my value range is at least 3/4 of my betting range. Still, I think I should be betting the upper part of my bluff range (such as A-high and weak pairs), but yeah, you're spot on
5/5 Why did I get called down by K-high? Quote
12-17-2014 , 02:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rumor
Your decision to bet also ignores the fact that you beat a fair % of the hands villain is folding anyway.
true
5/5 Why did I get called down by K-high? Quote
12-17-2014 , 02:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VegasandcaliJeff
Protect your "hand"/computer screen.
This was from a live hand at my local casino. I post hands on my replayer so my friends and I have a consistent way of retelling their hands. (Fellow 2+2er's are more than welcome to use it.) I wanted us, live players, to have close to the same tools as online players. I also wanted to have a voting system that complements what 2+2 forums do--I love the comments and feedback on this forum. For example, there are almost 30 great comments on this thread alone. But it looks like there are over 200 votes in the replayer, which tells me a lot of people are interested in participating and contributing in another way as well.
5/5 Why did I get called down by K-high? Quote
12-17-2014 , 12:30 PM
Could it just be he misread his hand?
Was he a fish-calling station?

I've been in those spots where I hit bottom pair bet as a bluff and got called by king high...its weird for sure.

You see what I don't get is the limp pre-flop by V.

oh and by the way raise the turn such a sweet card there I play it like I have nuts and shipping any river if called.
5/5 Why did I get called down by K-high? Quote
12-17-2014 , 12:56 PM
I think the hand re-player is brilliant. What a great way to interactively get involved with hands to help simulate difficult poker situations and help players think during the heat of the moment. I think it has a lot of potential.

In situations of ambiguity, where ranges are difficult to specify, I sometimes classify ranges as Strong (made hands), Marginal (made hands), Weak (bluffs/draws).

Because you shown a bluff earlier, Villain has a reason to believe your have a wide range and the bet on the flop consists of a weak range: bluffs, straight draws lesser than King high.

Villain may also have a read on your river bets.

That you're checking your marginal strength hands with showdown value,
and you're betting strong/nutted and weak/bluffs at the river.

Bet more marginal made hands with proper reads vs. Villain, to punish when we expect to be called down light. We also gain more value in these situations where instead of checking, we bet middle or bottom pair (marginal range) on the river and Villain decides to bluff catch.

As a result your actions will have a more flat range making it harder for villain to distinguish between marginal and strong value, and between value and bluffs (or weak range).

When Villain adapts is he good enough to check-raise or raise your flat range? That's a whole other topic.
5/5 Why did I get called down by K-high? Quote
12-17-2014 , 01:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Agrees
Could it just be he misread his hand?
Was he a fish-calling station?

I've been in those spots where I hit bottom pair bet as a bluff and got called by king high...its weird for sure.

You see what I don't get is the limp pre-flop by V.

oh and by the way raise the turn such a sweet card there I play it like I have nuts and shipping any river if called.
I don't think he misread his hand. I mucked when he called, and then he went out of his way to show me his K-high and asked if he was good.
I may have auto-mucked A-high too so I'm glad I didn't have the winning hand. lol

I considered shipping turn, but I didn't think a station would fold after donking out so I decided to call and try to realize my potential/implied odds on the river.... which actually argues for checking back river.
5/5 Why did I get called down by K-high? Quote
12-17-2014 , 01:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet$on
I think the hand re-player is brilliant. What a great way to interactively get involved with hands to help simulate difficult poker situations and help players think during the heat of the moment. I think it has a lot of potential.
Thanks! I appreciate the feedback. Please feel free to use it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet$on
In situations of ambiguity, where ranges are difficult to specify, I sometimes classify ranges as Strong (made hands), Marginal (made hands), Weak (bluffs/draws).

Because you shown a bluff earlier, Villain has a reason to believe your have a wide range and the bet on the flop consists of a weak range: bluffs, straight draws lesser than King high.

Villain may also have a read on your river bets.

That you're checking your marginal strength hands with showdown value,
and you're betting strong/nutted and weak/bluffs at the river.

Bet more marginal made hands with proper reads vs. Villain, to punish when we expect to be called down light. We also gain more value in these situations where instead of checking, we bet middle or bottom pair (marginal range) on the river and Villain decides to bluff catch.

As a result your actions will have a more flat range making it harder for villain to distinguish between marginal and strong value, and between value and bluffs (or weak range).

When Villain adapts is he good enough to check-raise or raise your flat range? That's a whole other topic.
I adjusted after that play by bluffing him less and trying to vbet much thinner. Unfortunately, he showed up with slightly better hands after that too :/
5/5 Why did I get called down by K-high? Quote
12-17-2014 , 02:05 PM
I can find a call there against someone playing aggro. You are repping a flush only, you are checking back most medium made hands if you really have them. Probably an ace as well. Villain asked himself, " why did he bet? " and decided bluff was likely enough
5/5 Why did I get called down by K-high? Quote
12-17-2014 , 10:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eof
I can find a call there against someone playing aggro. You are repping a flush only, you are checking back most medium made hands if you really have them. Probably an ace as well. Villain asked himself, " why did he bet? " and decided bluff was likely enough
The problem though is that most of the time, Hero will be bluffing with a hand that beats King High!!!! .

Board is 2c 7d 8d Jc 4d

Hero raised UTG, if we give hero a ridiculous raising range and apply it evenly lets say his range is:
45s+, 64s+, JT+, 55+, Axs, Kxs, Qxs

that is a huge range. Now, lets see how K5hh fairs against this range on this board

Quote:
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

248 games 0.086 secs 2,883 games/sec

Board: 2c 7d 8d Jc 4d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 88.306% 87.90% { 55+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 1: 11.694% { Kh5h }
---
So even against a super wide range by Hero, we see that hero calling with K5hh is just really really bad. It is lighting money on fire because more often than naught, Hero is bluffing with the best hand!

I think too often in these spots thinking players level themselves with "Well, it doesn't make any sense, he's got to be bluffing..."

The thinking player is so fixated on his awesome soul read that he forgets that in certain spots, the bluff still beats him!!!!

And this is one of those spots. Hero's triple barrel here is going to beat villain 88%+ of the time. Villain just got super lucky that this was the one spot where his K5hh was good. But 9 times out of 10 he loses here to a hand Hero decided to turn into a bluff, like 55 or 97 or A3 or KT....

Last edited by dgiharris; 12-17-2014 at 10:56 PM.
5/5 Why did I get called down by K-high? Quote
12-18-2014 , 12:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgiharris
The problem though is that most of the time, Hero will be bluffing with a hand that beats King High!!!! .

Board is 2c 7d 8d Jc 4d

Hero raised UTG, if we give hero a ridiculous raising range and apply it evenly lets say his range is:
45s+, 64s+, JT+, 55+, Axs, Kxs, Qxs

And this is one of those spots. Hero's triple barrel here is going to beat villain 88%+ of the time. Villain just got super lucky that this was the one spot where his K5hh was good. But 9 times out of 10 he loses here to a hand Hero decided to turn into a bluff, like 55 or 97 or A3 or KT....
Agree that a call with K5 was bad, but disagree about your analysis. Villain is most likely thinking that Hero will check behind any hand with showdown value (A high, any pair). Eliminate all pairs and A high from your range and now how does K5 do against Hero's range? (Use a WA/WB range where Hero either has no pair, no ace or has a straight or better)
5/5 Why did I get called down by K-high? Quote
12-18-2014 , 01:42 PM
Chances are there is no logic behind it. He probably called you out of spite.

He thought he might be good if it goes check check. He wanted you to check but knew you was going to bet before you made it. In the end he probably just thought f*** it and called.

If he was wrong he could silently muck and you'd be none the wiser. If he lost to something weak he'd look stupid but would get over it. If he won he'd rub your nose in it and make sure you see exactly what he called you with and basically tell you to stop messing with him as he's not afraid to call you down.

Don't think you can now exploit him because I doubt he'll do it often. He will probably still make poker decisions based on reads whether they are right or wrong. But this was probably a call based on emotion.
5/5 Why did I get called down by K-high? Quote

      
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