Nice post Ramna but let me fix this for you:

And 3 betting vs a strong range is pure spew every time.

For whom?

Arguably the safest advice on this forum is to play tight and aggressively. To be clear, I think we have to be more imaginative these days, people are wisening up to the pfr/cbet/check turn routine. But, tight is generally right.

Some of us are looking toward the next thing, though. So we occasionally see the post entitled, "I wanna be a LAG!" Followed by a string of hand histories showing how adroitly hero spews off stacks and stacks of chips. BTDT.

However, I still believe there is another layer of expertise available to low limit players.

Garrick published a "best of" post suggesting that poker is an elaborate game of rock/paper/scissors. At these levels, that is correct. Someday I'm gonna read a book on OGS although it is of purely academic interest; at this level, we are all playing unbalanced.

Here's how it works at 1/2 and it looks to me like 2/5 as well: nit beats calling station, calling station beats maniac, maniac beats nit. If you're playing TAG -- which I sometimes call Nit 2.0 -- you will make money off the calling stations. One is well advised to steer clear of LAGs. You can make pocket change off the nits from time to time, as long as you don't lose your head.

To profit off of loose players and nits -- and other TAGs -- you have to adjust.

ANL is absolutely correct. So are you, of course. If you're a TAG player, raising a nit who opened from EP is a really bad idea. However, if you plan to actually exploit the nits, and you have the skill and roll to do it, raising pre is necessary at least sometimes; arguably, most of the time.

That's where I'm at in my game. I'm seeing a lot of my posts recently end with "kids, don't try this at home," recognizing that this is bad advice for people who really need to focus on their opening range, position, hand reading, and player profiling skills. To be sure, I still need to work on those things also, although we all get different things out of poker, and to me I'm more interested in learning than cash flow. And so if I want to play around with advanced strategies, that's my business.

I think it's reasonable to preface a post with, "Now, if you want to take your play to the next level...." and to reply to that post with, "This stuff is hazardous if you don't have your basics down."

But what ANL is saying is, in fact, correct. I mean, that's just a fact.

Here's what is making me LOL and pee my pants: "no fold equity." Really? You guys have never seen some little old man flick his cards, show them to his little old friend, and say, "I know he doesn't have it, but I just can't call." Cmon guys. Granted, you don't have fold equity until you have it. In this hand, hero didn't have a dime of it pre, or OTF. He might have a bucket of it, too much in fact, once the turn rolls around. Hero is learning how to exploit a nit, but he's going to learn it the hard way, it seems.

[QUOTE=AbqDave;44173590]For whom?

Arguably the safest advice on this forum is to play tight and aggressively. To be clear, I think we have to be more imaginative these days, people are wisening up to the pfr/cbet/check turn routine. But, tight is generally right.

Some of us are looking toward the next thing, though. So we occasionally see the post entitled, "I wanna be a LAG!" Followed by a string of hand histories showing how adroitly hero spews off stacks and stacks of chips. BTDT.

However, I still believe there is another layer of expertise available to low limit players.







Wow, the first reply here with an open mind enough to know that if he travels a little further than he can see, he may find out the world is not flat.

The lines that I take are in fact higher level, but work perfectly at these limits. I used to dummy down the lines for my thought of where OP may be in poker, but now I just say what i do and why.

I perform this line vs that type player multiple times every single day. So successful at it that it is pathetic. Thus, when players just quickly state, nope, thats horribad, this guy is nuts-----well....

There have been several players that I thought must be losing players because of lines they would take. I later found out they had higher winrates than me--lol. This is why poker is the awesome game that it is. So many people (from the sharpest prodigies to the dull tools back in the shed) have different perspectives on the game and strangely enough ALL feel they are right. The smart ones take everything in, analyze it, try it possibly, and then they can say they like or dislike the line.

So ANL when you 3bet the old tight nit who raised UTG with KQs is it for value or as a bluff?

Pretty sure we are bluffing here with any two napkins that just happen to be suited, be blockers to some of the nits value range, and happen to be high cards. His plan on the flop is pretty much to just assume that the nit 'missed' enough that he can take it away on the flop a large % of the time.

We are essentially setting up for a two street bluff when we 3bet.

Just to clear this up about what to do vs a tight old mans UTG open when we hold KQs

Flat > fold > empty wallet on to table, pour gasoline on it, light match > 3bet

It's not close.

Actually flatting and folding are pretty close.

Agreed except that lighting money on fire is = to 3bet.

Neither. I 3 bet small because....
1- we are deep
2- if he 3 bets then im glad that im out for 45 or 50 bucks
3-if he has TT JJ even QQ he will most likely flat my 3 bet
4- if he has AK he most likely flats my 3 bet



KK AA he 4 bets and i fold.

Now if he calls he does have a better hand yes, but all of his hands will not flop well very often. TT JJ has overcards on flop or turn a ton. AK misses the flop the majority of the time.

With proper betsizing postflop which will precisely determine which of these holdings he has and how likely i can fold him by river.

I will win this hand a very large portion of the time. I also will lose VERY little when he flops well. Its basically all in my favor having position, initiative, postflop skill plus having a very good idea of his range now.


IF he is a complete drooler who wont fold AK nor JJ on a Qxx board for 2 bets, then i would not take this line. But most OMC nits dont llike to call offlight with less than top pair IMO.

I do not have to have the best hand to do this. My current 3 bet at 6max is around 16. I hardly ever feel I have the best hand when I 3 bet. I dont need it IF the player plays straightforward. I do it with the KQs simply because the hand WILL show up with enough back up equity to save me enough of the time to make it very profitable.

When I hold a K, I have a blocker or an out almost always on avg here..

Ha, This is such a reciprocal edge that is is rediculous. The real issue that i see here is this. I only post what I truly think. I obv leave a fair amt. out for business reasons. But when anyone who lets just say "might" be an authority on it (Matters not whether you believe it or not) adamantly says something is phenominal, then players should open their minds and at least investigate. To look at lines and instantly say OMG thats puke and move on is exactly why the same players sit and 1-2 or 2-5 for years and years.

This IS the best valid play here OR just fold. Thats just my take on it and players can investigate it or just puke on it. Its their loss if the puke.

Oh god no, not reciprocal edges again. Of all of the nonsense that is posted here, the concept of reciprocal edges is probably at/near the top of the list for the worst.

Also, all of that analysis is relatively worthless, and it certainly does not prove the profitability of 3b KQs in this spot. Im curious, what would your 3b range be in this spot? Surely something like K3s would be a profitable 3b under all that analysis, so where do you draw the line? I expect that using the frame work that you have drawn up, almost any suited combination of cards would be a profitable 3b

ANL - using your theory of scare cards and whatever else, couldn't we also flat and see what our opponent does post? Say it's an Ace high flop and we know our opponent will check JJ, QQ, and even KK... can't we simply double barrel (or maybe even one barrel) to accomplish the same thing? If we 3bet pre we are bloating the flop and our bluffs cost way more. My opinion is we should bluff, but at the least possible cost.

Representing hands and trying to make people fold OP's in LLSNL is pretty bad... but that's IME. I play 1/1 and 1/2 on a regular basis and I truly believe that repping to make people fold is not good.

Also... How can 3betting or betting in general be neither for value or as a bluff? I don't get that.

Preflop police:

I'm mildly surprised calling is favored over folding ITT.

AQs is likely a fold too.

I have some doubt whatever skill advantage is possessed by hero is going to magically make coldcalling +ev vs an omc's utg range

I would think stacks need to be even larger than this (200bb's+) to start w/speculatory RIO's

Don't give action to the nit!

I don't think calling is favored at all. Multiple people have said it's close between calling and folding, and it is. I think the biggest problem is the description given is old tight white guy (old nit) and people are drawing conclusion based off their experience.

The terms 'valuebet' and 'bluff' are only really accurately used when referring to betting on the river. up to that point, it is somewhat inaccurate, although it can still be useful shorthand. preflop is actually one of the situations in which it is the least useful, so i dont take issue with people not classifying a 3b as either a valuebet or a bluff. in general, the more that the value of betting/raising with a hand comes from realizing its equity, the less accurately it is described as a bluff.

The problem is ANL assumes that all of his conceptions about how his opponent will play his cards are true (his opponent will never 4 bet w/out AA or KK, will never get sticky with just one overcard on the board, etc.) Just because you would play your cards differently than most doesn't make it good, or make you Benjamin Franklin. You don't need to make plays like plays like this to beat low limits, if you play solid and fundamentally sound (most people don't) YOU WILL CRUSH.

In my limited experience so far, it's usually more like a float/bluff. Although if checked to, a b/f on the flop is good, if you can credibly represent a scary hand.

100% disagree. If you can hand read/range correctly you will know at all times whether you are value betting or bluffing. Sure there are times when what you think is a value bet turns out to be a bluff, but all that means is that you ran into the top of an opponents range... or you suck at reading hands/ranges.

no, i think you are misunderstanding me. i am not talking about situations where you think you are 'valuebetting' but it turns out you were 'bluffing'. i am saying that using those terms at all to describe your bets before the river, is not especially accurate, and varies in usefulness. the reason for this is that often times a large portion of the value you gain from betting/raising is because of realizing your equity rather than folding out other hands. this is exemplified well by 3 betting ranges in hunlhe- many good players have 3b ranges ~20%, which includes hands such as 57s. they may choose to 3b these hands despite the fact that most/all of the profit from this decision comes postflop rather than pre (ie they expect to be called often enough to derive little/no profit from preflop alone). to categorize this 3b as a 'bluff' would not accurately describe it, since neither the purpose or the profit comes solely (or even mostly) from forcing the opponent to fold.

I completely understand what you are saying.... and still disagree..

In your example with the 57 I would categorize that as a bluff (who in the world is 3bet value betting pre with 7 high?)... post flop it may or may not change (reason to bet), but most of the time we are going to need to bluff some more.

I dont use bluff term per se since I am not attempting to fold V out. It WILL set up for me to bluff postflop a majority of the time.

Im not saying you----but a great many lower limit players dont understand that it is very tough to raise a range of TT+ AK and make it to the river vs a skillful player IP who 3 bets small and knows how to read and manipulate postflop. (V needs to be straightforward with low creativity/spew /tilt)

How many flops do you love when you have AK TT JJ QQ? How often will you make it to river IF the other player decides to test you and pound on you the moment you show weakness?

And my god by no means should we mention Reciprocality, since after all it is Reciprocality that causes edge in poker. You can play +EV with standard lines every play and if it happens that everyone else plays +EV in the same spots as well, then no money moves. Many times you have one optimal +EV line and that is that.

Here, I take an even higher +EV line of 3 betting AND nobody else takes this optimal line THUS I gain a reciprocal edge that nobody else earns.

STRONG NOTE: 3 betting the KQ here small requires the whole package of postflop skill, betsizing, heandreading and on and on. Having said that if you have what it takes postflop, then 3 betting preflop is the higher EV line and happens to generate a reciprocal edge because NOBODY else takes tois optimal line.



I usually do not go here in the forums, but since my credibility is being scorned horrendously I will leak this. I sweat and direct this type of play about 6-7 hours daily online these days. Once the student has taken 2 sweat lessons with me, most are upping sessions to either 3-4 per week and two are upping to one session per day. If you think that is a lie, PM me and I will give you their email address or if they have a handle here, their PM handle.

I 3 bet a ton of tight nit passives who open UTG with VPIP/PFR of 11/6 in 6max and on Bovada you can see the next day what you outplayed and 99 TT JJ AK get horridly outplayed when they insist of flatting 3 bets OOP preflop ---when up against a competent player who is IP and MUCH moreso than if the IP flats and attempts to outplay post. Flatting pre allows others to come on in and now its a party so creative play postflop will be cut to the minimums.

This works exactly the same live as online as long as the V is tight yet passive. It works even better the wider the opener is.


And FWIW to the OP, what I gave is an optimal line that is only optimal if you can follow thru precisely postflop. It requires a high degree of skill. I have no idea if that is above your abilities and have quit trying to gauge answers based on OP skill level which I rarely even have a clue. I just give MY optimal line and I run over nits all day every day doing this very thing, so for all those who say its horribad, Im sorry, you just are not aware and thats fine.

This forum is for everyone to give THEIR OWN reply and lately has become one player ripping another players answers. I dont go out of my way to condemn any others thoughts and find it a bit weak that some on here think they need to critique my replies constantly. Mine are proven, Jesus, many times over, and yet so many supposed serious players refuse to even give them a listen.

Online 6 max =/= Live FR. Not even close. Stakes make a huge difference too. Not sure which stakes you are making these 3bet whatchamacallits at, but I guess if they are working for you...

Nope, on Bovada a great many players play exactly the same as live. Same tendencies--same everything. And I sweat from 10-25cent games all the way to 1000nl games everyday. The play works the same, regardless of limit as long as the player type remains the same.

As far as live vs online, if you want I have a list of students names who will tell you how well THEY perform this play vs their own villains at 1-2, 1-3 and 2-5. If you want the email addresses, please PM.



And also, I will bow out of this thread since actually training players how to play at this level requires a fee. You yourself can email my students and ask them if the fee was worth it. I know you wont believe me, but just maybe you will believe them.

No need for me to email anyone. Thanks for the offer though.

Bingo.

Re-raising that board with that type of player is suicide. Any solid player knows that if he has any kind of made hand against a LAG that he needs to charge full price every street if he's going to go to the river to try and make it unprofitable for you to call. He made a mistake by giving you a chance to call 20 for a 68 dollar pot.

So much good advice itt.

I think just folding pre is best. If you have a really really good read and villain is weak tight, 3betting small pre is best. Problem is a lot of nits only raise like QQ+ and sometimes AK, JJ