Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-06-2012, 04:48 PM   #1
Phishy McFish
adept
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 921
$3-5 Turned trips, rivered AceHigh Flush...

I'm playing $3-5 and (though I suspect people on here always over-estimate how tight their image is at a table and/or that low-stake live players even pick up on image of players at all) I believe I am viewed as tight, possibly even scared to be playing as deep as I am at this level. I sit $1-2 in this room 90% of the time.

I hit top two and a king high flush and am now sitting around $1000, after buying in for just $300. Between $300 and $600 are allowed Villain, sitting with just over $600 has already cracked my aces with A9 and bet me off an AKx board when I had QQ, both times with me raising 5BBs pre and him calling alone behind. He showed one card (ace) on the latter hand.

Hero is on the button, 7 handed, and with 2 limpers I raise to $25 with AJ and again only villain calls.
Flop comes QJ7 and action goes check-check.
Turn is J I now have trip jacks and the ace high flush draw. He leads out for $55 and I call behind. My logic, though aware could easily be flawed is that I am either incredibly ahead or incredibly behind. But my thought/play gets worse...so let's get to that.

The river is the 5 giving me the A-high flush. He checks to me and I bet $150. He tanks, gives the courtesy "Why so much?"...tanks some more and then turns over a the case jack. At first I think this is to get my reaction to "Does trips beat you?" (unsaid)...and I'm begging he calls...then he shrugs his shoulders and shoves it all in.

At this point my thinking totally changes...and for now I will leave it at that. Beyond any criticism of the entire hand's play by me...I am still curious to what you put him on, and of course..."As played I would call/fold."
Phishy McFish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 05:00 PM   #2
LolPony
Pooh-Bah
 
LolPony's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: @DeTalores
Posts: 4,010
Re: $3-5 Turned trips, rivered AceHigh Flush...

I snap call and get pissed when he tanks then shoves QJ nuts.
When he shows the J I don't thinkw e can fold after he tanks.
LolPony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 05:04 PM   #3
PokahBlows
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,005
Re: $3-5 Turned trips, rivered AceHigh Flush...

Always cbet this flop with an Ace blocker and a pair.

Turn flatting is good.

River: Did the 4th heart look like it scared him? I just don't see someone checking a fullhouse here vs a tight player. Unless he puts you on a fullhouse. When he shows the j its an insta call.

Now if your an aggressive player then he could be hollywooding a weak fullhouse.

Did villain ever shove in any of those hands against you? What's his general style of play.
PokahBlows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 05:04 PM   #4
Turntup74
old hand
 
Turntup74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Floating OOP with 8 high
Posts: 1,646
Re: $3-5 Turned trips, rivered AceHigh Flush...

If he did all that acting w/o showing then shoves i think you can safely fold. Since he flashed a J then shoved i think he has a smaller J a lot of the time
Turntup74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 05:05 PM   #5
whoismikeyyy
centurion
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Wonderer
Posts: 114
Re: $3-5 Turned trips, rivered AceHigh Flush...

With the speech, I am never going to call this c/r.

I put him on a QJ/J7 type hand. Either way, he has a full house here.

I like how you played they hand.

Checking the flop is good because it will allow you to control the size of the pot with a hand that is likely best on a draw heavy board.

Calling the turn is fine because you have too strong of hand to fold because the villain could definitely be leading with a weaker hand. It is also going to be tough to get value form worse hands OTT. You have flush draw protection so seeing another card is not a concern.

OTR I bet less than this to try and get a call from weak heart that is trying to get to showdown. Something like 100-120.

As played, I would definitely fold.

EDIT: I would also like to add that your hand does look like a heart here. And when you bet $150, you hand looks a lot like the A of hearts. Another reason this is probably a fold.

Last edited by whoismikeyyy; 03-06-2012 at 05:34 PM.
whoismikeyyy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 05:10 PM   #6
Kyuubimon
grinder
 
Kyuubimon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: The Digital World
Posts: 662
Re: $3-5 Turned trips, rivered AceHigh Flush...

Villain dependent, but as played I call most of the time. If he had QJ and made a full on a board that could produce a flush, then WTH is he doing by revealing he might have that hand? If he's tanking because he's afraid that you have the queens to his underfull, he'd probably show the whole hand.

Put him on trips and call unless you have a very good reason to suspect he's doing a reverse fake in order to prompt a call from the nut flush. Usually, when players get "cute" like that, it means snap call if you beat what they're repping.
Kyuubimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 05:11 PM   #7
CyrusJavid
adept
 
CyrusJavid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: In a love/hate relationship w/ AK
Posts: 1,031
Re: $3-5 Turned trips, rivered AceHigh Flush...

First, damn poker gods for putting you in this spot.
Second, hit an A on the river next time so can snap his A$$ off.
Third, close your eyes, take a deep breath and say " I call".
Fourth, if you ran into a boat, reload or grind it back at 1/2.


BTW, did he look at his cards to choose which one to show?
CyrusJavid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 05:12 PM   #8
kenji08
old hand
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,367
Re: $3-5 Turned trips, rivered AceHigh Flush...

need reads on villain. all we have right now is that he bad beat you, not much other than that. this is tough because your river sizing polarizes your hand to boat/nut flush/nothing. so it looks really strong, but then when he turns over the J and tank shoves i think we have to fold because i just dont see very many ppl doing **** like this without the nuts. with that being said, villains turn bet is awfully big. so why would he bet so big if he turned the boat? if he rivered the boat this makes sense, but we need to know if he plays hands like j5
kenji08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 05:14 PM   #9
kenji08
old hand
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,367
Re: $3-5 Turned trips, rivered AceHigh Flush...

this is a pretty big river shove btw he has 520ish left after action, i dont see many ppl just jam in 520 after showing a jack with 4 to a flush on the board without a boat
kenji08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 05:14 PM   #10
whoismikeyyy
centurion
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Wonderer
Posts: 114
Re: $3-5 Turned trips, rivered AceHigh Flush...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuubimon View Post
Villain dependent, but as played I call most of the time. If he had QJ and made a full on a board that could produce a flush, then WTH is he doing by revealing he might have that hand? If he's tanking because he's afraid that you have the queens to his underfull, he'd probably show the whole hand.

Put him on trips and call unless you have a very good reason to suspect he's doing a reverse fake in order to prompt a call from the nut flush. Usually, when players get "cute" like that, it means snap call if you beat what they're repping.
OTR, isn't the villain representing a full house?
whoismikeyyy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 05:19 PM   #11
PokahBlows
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,005
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoismikeyyy View Post
OTR, isn't the villain representing a full house?
Why would villain show a j tank and shove with a fullhouse.

Villain move otr looks like j with a K heart. The only hand that makes sense.

J7/j5/QJ would never do that.
PokahBlows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 05:36 PM   #12
whoismikeyyy
centurion
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Wonderer
Posts: 114
Re: $3-5 Turned trips, rivered AceHigh Flush...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokahBlows View Post
Why would villain show a j tank and shove with a fullhouse.

Villain move otr looks like j with a K heart. The only hand that makes sense.

J7/j5/QJ would never do that.
First of all, my bad on the 77/55 statement in my first post. I missed that in my first read. So basically that first post is ****. oops.

I disagree that J7/J5/QJ never do this.

In situations where villains do strange things like this, I have just never won calling them.

Why do you think the villain is c/r ai with the K of hearts here?
whoismikeyyy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 05:48 PM   #13
PokahBlows
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,005
Re: $3-5 Turned trips, rivered AceHigh Flush...

Well I'm thinking villain is bad just like any player we analyze.

"And that's the only hand that makes sense to me". Villain has to put op on a heart. Why would he show trips that's no good on a 4flush board and shove. He wants a call not a fold.

Hero can't have QJ/J7/J5, so only hands he would want a call from are, 77/55, op is scared money he won't ever have those hands in his range.
PokahBlows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 05:52 PM   #14
fun101
veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,235
Re: $3-5 Turned trips, rivered AceHigh Flush...

with the speech, showing the Jack and then shoving, im probally folding tbh
fun101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 06:00 PM   #15
hfrog355
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
hfrog355's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,384
Re: $3-5 Turned trips, rivered AceHigh Flush...

I think your river sizing really sucks. What are you hoping to get called by when you pot the river? $100 is a better size IMO. Allows you to get calls from lesser flushes, some jacks and a few stubborn queens.

I think you should cbet this flop. This is as good a flop to cbet as any and you got a piece of it. There are plenty of draws and a few worse made hands that can come along. You can check the turn if you don't improve.

As played, I like the flat on the turn.

The river is a pretty sticky spot. How can he be beating you when he checks? With the speech and the show, how can he not be beating you when he shoves? Gross. If you truly think villain sees you as tight I would call because he runs the risk of you checking behind and would have been value betting his boats. If you have doubts about the image, I would make a crying call. If he knows you are scared money, he can be turning a lot of value hands into a bluff. Either way, I think villain knows exactly what you have and the decision for hero revolves around what he thinks villain would do with that information.

Something I don't see specified is where villain is: a blind or the field?

Spoiler:
hfrog355 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 06:07 PM   #16
jbull
centurion
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Yukon, OK
Posts: 172
Re: $3-5 Turned trips, rivered AceHigh Flush...

Always cbet that flop. Middle pair with an ace blocker, and a nut flush redraw. If he has qj or q7 he will probably raise you there making the latter streets easier.

He has pushed you off some hands earlier in the session, and you admit you are viewed as weak. Based on that I would look to make a crying call here. He has to suspect you for having a flush, so his showing a jack is to gain FE against your flush. He can only put you on one hand with your line and that is the nut flush. His line looks like trips all the way and not a boat.
jbull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 06:37 PM   #17
Dragon Ash
grinder
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 626
Re: $3-5 Turned trips, rivered AceHigh Flush...

Damn this is a tough spot. Villain is evil, btw.

Where was villain sitting? UTG, MP, CO? If i read the OP right, he first limped in, then was the only caller to Hero's raise preflop. So what hands would he limp in with but still call a raise OOP to a tight pre flop raiser? more importantly, what hands with J in them match his play? The only hand that makes since to me is QJ. I think J5 and J7 are folded pre.

AFter he tanks, shows a J, and basically tries to get us to think he's weak, then shoves, I don't think we're ever good here.


As played, I fold on the river and don't think twice about...
Dragon Ash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 06:39 PM   #18
Gesangsverein
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 318
Re: $3-5 Turned trips, rivered AceHigh Flush...

Quote:
Originally Posted by fun101 View Post
with the speech, showing the Jack and then shoving, im probally folding tbh
+1
with the reads you provided I think we can assume he's able to limp-call your preflop raise with QJ / J7s for sure and can't even rule out J7off / J5 suited

On the other hand I think his bet sizeing is not what most people LLSNL players would do with a turned boat (read on this would make your decision so easy!).

Besides: Try to include villains position next time - there are quite some LLSNL players how would limp behind even hands as worse as J5off from the cutoff, but fold J7 suited and OJoff if the were UTG and/or the one who limps first.

Cliffnotes:
-with the information you provided I would fold
-Next time know: something about his bet sizing / more about his range / if he gets bored / if he needs to be bluffy and tricky for the sake of this ego...and make this a snap
Gesangsverein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 07:03 PM   #19
Sticksv3
journeyman
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 338
Re: $3-5 Turned trips, rivered AceHigh Flush...

Puke everywhere to start.

As played, I fold. I've been thinking about it for a while and its such an easy check with a boat otr for him as your range has a lot of naked hearts with pairs in it so you're almost guranteed to bet that river, plus you could be bluffing at it.

Speeches are the nuts. Speeches, coupled with villian showing you a card so you think he only has trips, is pretty much the nuts the whole time. If he just had a jack he would shove, no way he would give this speech. A rediculously small percentage of the time he could have KJ with K of hearts, but most of the time this is solely QJ for a boat.

Pretty sick spot, but I would feel really good about a fold, not sure if I could make it in game (heavily villian dependent), but that speech is super strong and would help a lot.

Btw, this flop is a pretty easy cbet with the lead. As played, I would be raising his turn bet with trips and 2 redraws to FH's and the nut flush, it's a dream turn card.

Last edited by Sticksv3; 03-06-2012 at 07:07 PM. Reason: Forgot to add something
Sticksv3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 07:19 PM   #20
2OutsNoProb
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: SI, NY
Posts: 15,293
Re: $3-5 Turned trips, rivered AceHigh Flush...

I stopped reading the OP halfway through, and barely bothered to read any responses, I may after I'm done, but I'll post beforehand.

This is the world's easiest fold. He's full here about 80000000% of the time. If he's not full, showing one Jack serves no purpose whatsoever.

He gave the river speech, then check/raised all in when it's very easy for Hero to have a flush. This is pretty significant. He's obviously not afraid that Hero has a flush.

He also check/raised all in on the river for an amount that looks like it's going to get called. Again, very significant. This isn't a bluff.

The only thing he could do this with that we beat is KhJx. It's a lot more likely that he has QJ or J7s/J5s. Muck. Tough to do in the actual heat of the moment, but this is a fold.
2OutsNoProb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 07:24 PM   #21
2OutsNoProb
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: SI, NY
Posts: 15,293
Re: $3-5 Turned trips, rivered AceHigh Flush...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokahBlows View Post
Why would villain show a j tank and shove with a fullhouse.

Villain move otr looks like j with a K heart. The only hand that makes sense.

J7/j5/QJ would never do that.
I actually think doing this with houses is exactly what he'd do. Tank, speech, show a naked Jack to make it look like he's got trip Jacks and is scared of Hero's hand, then shove an amount which will likely to get called. Makes a ton of sense with a house because many, many people have no chance to get off of A-high or K-high flushes here.

What it makes no sense with is naked trips. It's never getting called by a worse hand and virtually always getting called by better ones, and from Villain's perspective Hero can easily have a huge hand. It would be suicide to show trips and then shove them as a bluff against Hero's possible enormous holding.
2OutsNoProb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 07:32 PM   #22
PokahBlows
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,005
Re: $3-5 Turned trips, rivered AceHigh Flush...

You could be right "2Outs" I was just giving my analysis on the play. I have never seen this play with a fullhouse.

It still doesn't make sense to me, Villain to shove a full house and show the trip card before the shove. He has been running over hero the whole time.

Why would he want a fold. Seems like a bluff from KJ

I can't wait till results I will make a note of this play. If he has a boat.
PokahBlows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 08:41 PM   #23
Phishy McFish
adept
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 921
Re: $3-5 Turned trips, rivered AceHigh Flush...

OK...so it seems consensus is that I should have Cbet flop...I actually wanted to pot control AND use "I'm weak, come bet me out of this hand I am not getting bet out of." (trap). But I get the suggestion and am OK with it.

Here's where I was at on river in my head. I generally will make this call and lament afterwards for being coolered. Big laydowns is not my strength, readily admit. BUT, and this is where I feel OK with my decision (which was fold), if I pick up on the following...which others felt as well...I think it had to be right.

IMO He shows the jack for one reason and one reason only...to get a call. Why risk encouraging a possible weak/any flush to call unless you want it to?
Why the tank, the gimmicky show one card, then the shrug and shove? I don't think he thought I was as strong as I was...I think he believes that by showing me the jack I get an inflated opinion of my heart and call.

In the end, I believe only 2 hands are really likely. 1 makes me sick to my stomach (KJ) and the other is obviously what I felt he had and why I laid down...QxJ. It's the turn bet that gives me pause by him...and the only thing that keeps KJ in my head.

As it is, I figure..you're up in the bigger game...if you are wrong here you are back to playing scared if you fold you still got bullets to get back to real poker...I fold and end up walking out with $1300+. I can live with it if I was wrong. And I feel I can sit that game again...I later bluffed huge pre against him and another guy and then got there with garbage flush that I never had to show. That's not important other than to make me feel that if you cannot bluff at all in a game...it's too big for you.

Thanks to all for replies.
Phishy McFish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 08:46 PM   #24
Sticksv3
journeyman
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 338
Re: $3-5 Turned trips, rivered AceHigh Flush...

Nice fold. Takes discipline to fold even though going through the whole hand makes it seem like he has to have a boat.
Sticksv3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 11:36 PM   #25
hfrog355
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
hfrog355's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,384
Re: $3-5 Turned trips, rivered AceHigh Flush...

I think that's a really good fold. I don't think I could have done it.
hfrog355 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.33 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2016 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ę 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online