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2/5 - we flop a set and then.... 2/5 - we flop a set and then....

08-28-2014 , 02:54 PM
Does he ever check here with a boat after potting it otf and ott?
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08-28-2014 , 02:59 PM
that's the million dollar question. I don't think I could ever check with A7 or quads on the river, but it is a sick sick play if you can successfully c/r river here with a boat.
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08-28-2014 , 03:00 PM
I liked jaming the turn instead of flatting but as played I am just checking back on the river.

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08-28-2014 , 03:29 PM
IMO villain is never lead-bluffing here with a pot-sized bet. We know he has something decent, probably AQ+ (but never AA).

I would have raised flop because of this exact scenario. We're now at the point where we cannot possibly represent anything but a full house for value. So we know shoving is bad because we're only getting called by A7 or 77 and folding out everything else.

If we had made a smallish raise on the flop, it looks kind of bluffy. We're last to act on the button on a completely dry flop. I'm not sure villain ever folds to a flop raise given his range so we might as well try to get all the money in now.
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08-28-2014 , 03:53 PM
I just check this back because I don't see him calling with worse -- although it's hard to believe he checks a full house on the river. Still just calling. That neck pulsing is a huge tell. It's occasionally a bluff tell, but usually it's a big hand. I know because my neck does it. Good thing I'm a woman and can get away with the scarf / turtle neck thing better than most men (unless they are Euro meterosexuals).
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08-28-2014 , 03:59 PM
I do the neck pulsing as well. However I do it on both my bluff hands and huge hands.
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08-28-2014 , 04:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CohibaBehike
I do the neck pulsing as well. However I do it on both my bluff hands and huge hands.
Me, too, but this guy is doing it and he didn't bet. OP, was he doing it before the river -- as he was betting other streets -- or did it start when the river hit?
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08-28-2014 , 04:08 PM
River:

I don't really see him checking and risking a check-check with any higher boat or 77. It looks like the paired board scared him, which is why his heart is beating so hard, and I would wana jam it. I just can't see the nuts giving him that much stress and it's only about a 2/3rds psb anyway but...

He could hold A3 as easily as A7 and may have just got counterfieted. This is a female hero as well so his read on her could be she is very strong, which is maybe why he checked and this is a situation where you won't really get called by a losing hand so the check back is probably the better play especially since most people shake/get nervous WITH the nuts. A smaller value bet could be perceived as weakness by a big bluffer so she would need to prepare to gii if he does anyway and that might suck.

my verdict is to table her hand.
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08-28-2014 , 04:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pay4Myschool
What did the other two guys do OP? Fold?

He bet so large that calling can't be a mistake; can still get stacks in and there is almost no way I am not getting it all in by the river. I would actually consider flatting because given he overcalled, its fairly unlikely a player with this description will have AQ/AK too often; therefore his range appears to be Ax < AQ and A7/A3/77. A raise on the flop would blow off all weaker a pair Ax

If you call and he bombs the turn, his range appears most likely A7/A3/77 which we would then get stacks in pretty easily once he bets turn.
I would put some AQ's in his preflop range, too, but I think you're spot-on about his ranges OTF and OTT. I think the "capable of running structured multi-street bluffs" thing is a red herring here, b/c decent players do not turn their hands into multi-barrel bluffs by leading out into a huge field like that, even on a dry board. That flop bet shows considerable strength. Bottom set is probably still a favorite against his range OTF, but A3 is the only hand Hero beats once the 7 comes OTR, and Villain won't GII with a counterfeit hand. (Arterial pulsation confirms that he's got a monster.) Check it back and get ready to muck.
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08-28-2014 , 04:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javanewt
Me, too, but this guy is doing it and he didn't bet. OP, was he doing it before the river -- as he was betting other streets -- or did it start when the river hit?
I try to pay close attention to villains when big pots are brewing. I did not notice the neck pulsing until he checked the river. I find it a bit of an odd dynamic, I don't ever remember my neck pulsing while not having a bet in front of me.
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08-28-2014 , 04:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CohibaBehike
that's the million dollar question. I don't think I could ever check with A7 or quads on the river, but it is a sick sick play if you can successfully c/r river here with a boat.
If this V is a thinking player, he might well check the river, realizing that there are so few hands, b/c of card removal, that can even think about calling a river bet and that the most likely way to extract value is by inducing a bet from Hero.
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08-28-2014 , 04:29 PM
Villain is not checking a boat or quads. He's got to put hero on Ax as a big percentage of her hand which she will check back 100% besides a7 (doubtful she has this hand).

Bet $63 and call it off.
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08-28-2014 , 04:49 PM
I can't imagine why the neck would pulse on the 7 if V was bluffing the whole way or thought the 7 counterfeited his hand. If V thought he was ahead on flop/turn, 7 didn't change anything. I think the pulse is a sign of strength here. Regardless, what worse hand is calling -- and definitely what worse hand is check/raising?
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08-28-2014 , 04:58 PM
In my experience, the neck pulsing thing is always strength. I've never actually seen it be a bluff. The difficult thing in interpreting it is that sometimes players that do it are not as strong as they think they are...

But, given action and this tell, I can't see what value there is to betting river. Don't think he's calling with anything that we beat. I'm checking and expecting to see AA or 77 here.
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08-28-2014 , 05:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydrant25
In my experience, the neck pulsing thing is always strength. I've never actually seen it be a bluff. The difficult thing in interpreting it is that sometimes players that do it are not as strong as they think they are...

But, given action and this tell, I can't see what value there is to betting river. Don't think he's calling with anything that we beat. I'm checking and expecting to see AA or 77 here.
Really? You're expecting to see AA? Kind of a weird play for someone to not raise 5 callers out of the SB with AA and then immediately start bombing the pot with the absolute nuts. I'm guessing you mean A7.
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08-28-2014 , 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Franklin's Dad
Really? You're expecting to see AA? Kind of a weird play for someone to not raise 5 callers out of the SB with AA and then immediately start bombing the pot with the absolute nuts. I'm guessing you mean A7.
I don't think it's totally outside the realm of possibilities. The flop action looks a little like a stop and go move.

It's certainly really weird, but then again, villian checking this river is pretty odd considering flop and turn betting.
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08-28-2014 , 09:34 PM
Hmm... Looks like I'm the minority here. This entire hand I would be doing cart wheels in my head thinking how I'm going to get my whole stack into the pot here. I agree with the flop flat. He bet so big that we can still flat and easily get stacks in, plus we don't want to blow him off of Ax right away. Turn, I would probably shove the majority of the time. Too many cards that can kill our action now. I can see merit in calling though some of the time and may take that line some % of the time.

River as played, how ever... I would be fist pump jamming here. My plan the whole hand would be to get all-in. Boating the river and having my opponent show weakness wouldn't change that. Very surprised to see players advocating b/f here.
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08-29-2014 , 01:02 AM
Something crucial is missing: what is Hero's image? Unless I missed it, we have no idea what V (who's apparently competant and thinking) thinks of H's playing style. Is she LAG, TAG, nit...? For once, this should be fairly accurate since Op is 3rd person. Also its kinda important because its a home home game and H and V likely know each other well.
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08-29-2014 , 01:09 AM
As played, I'd feel compelled to raise turn, but probably check river as I dont think many hands call that we beat.
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08-29-2014 , 09:34 AM
I didn't think hero image was too crucial in this instance just because of how the hand played out. she plays aggressively and I don't want to call her a LAG, I will just say that she balances very well. Home game has a player pool of only like 20-25 players so yes they do play quite often.
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08-29-2014 , 09:39 AM
I'll flat flop all day with that board
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08-29-2014 , 10:00 AM
If she is aggressive, it's even more reason to check back river. He might actually expect her to bet if he shows weakness -- especially with her flop and turn calls. I've checked big hands on the river to aggressive players expecting them to bet thinking it's the only way I'm going to get more money.
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08-29-2014 , 10:08 AM
As played, I check river. I agree with the consensus that V isn't calling with a losing hand.
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08-29-2014 , 10:20 AM
Arpino I think you have the HH wrong on this. Pretty sure Lexy bet the flop after checked to and Scott raised $100 on top and then she flatted.
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08-29-2014 , 10:24 AM
Villain bombed away flop and turn. Hero flatted both.
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