A few hands before this hero raised to $20 UTG with 89s (yeah yeah berate me), got two callers, then button raise to $125 (young guy who was opening a lot pre). Hero 4! to $295 (berate me some more), got folds, and hero showed the table. So my image is certainly laggy...
Villain is MAWG wearing polo shirt and khaki shorts. Maybe 50s. No huge reads; he hasn't been at table long.
Villain starts with $1400 and hero covers.
The hand:
Preflop: Villain raises UTG to $20. Two callers. Hero raises JJ to $85 on button. Villain calls, another calls.
Flop ($275): 257ss
Checks to hero. Hero bets $115. Villain raises to $300. Hero? (Hero elects to call).
Turn ($875): 2x
Villain leads for $500 with about $515 behind. Hero?
Fold to the RR on the flop. As played I can't see how you could justify putting in any more money on the turn.
He isn't bluffing enough with AK or other random trash here and you are in a situation where almost all hands you beat fold and all that beat you stick it in.
Fold to the RR on the flop. As played I can't see how you could justify putting in any more money on the turn.
He isn't bluffing enough with AK or other random trash here and you are in a situation where almost all hands you beat fold and all that beat you stick it in.
Really? Hmm i think villain can have TT, 99 maybe even 88 here. Villain could have a read that hero is a sicko maniac after that 4 bet bluff. Cant fold flop. Ott, we lose to 7 combos, mayyybe 13 if you put QQ in there. Lets discount that to 10. We beat 18 combos (discounted to maybe 7?). If thats how we are ranging then its a shove ott. And not to mention villain has bluffs and random other hands like at least 10% of the time here. Gii ott
Be a MAWG - A rec player with maybe some extra money to burn. You're sitting across the table from this young looking tan skinned bearded guy with glasses, who just 4balled 89s after opening UTG, and showed everyone; and who currently covers the table. You've recently won $400 - probably with a strong hand that got to showdown (I wasn't at the table when he won that). As a MAWG Rec player, how are you playing your range both pre and post? What do you think about your laggy villain's button 3betting range and flop $115. What about the flat to your $300?
The problem is his UTG range is tight even if your image is garbage. Yes, he's occasionally getting out of line on the flop because he thinks you're FOS. But when he smashes the turn on a blank...
The problem is his UTG range is tight even if your image is garbage. Yes, he's occasionally getting out of line on the flop because he thinks you're FOS. But when he smashes the turn on a blank...
This is a 1K max BI game with straddles allowed from any position. So it definitely tends to play a bit looser than your standard 100BB BI games.
I didn't say all that. I'm just trying to figure out how people are ranging villain (and weighting the range) after a 4x UTG open, a flat to my 3bet, the flop x/r to an under half pot flop bet, and a stack-committing turn bet.
I'm just hearing "fold", but no ranges... (except from you)
I didn't say all that. I'm just trying to figure out how people are ranging villain (and weighting the range) after a 4x UTG open, a flat to my 3bet, the flop x/r to an under half pot flop bet, and a stack-committing turn bet.
I'm just hearing "fold", but no ranges...
Ya. If utg ranges are so strong, there are less sets for villain. We primarily lose to QQ and 77, maybe some KK and AA tho, but really gotta discount those with how deep you are.
You just need to determine how your opponents are playing their ranges against you assuming you're their spot.
If they're playing more hands for a raise and a call pre but have rigid fit-folding requirements post to stack off then you can 3b/cbet everything.
If they're playing fewer hands for a raise and a call pre but have low standards for stacking off post then you can 3b/cbet/barrel thin value.
If they're playing fewer hands for a raise and a call pre and have rigid fit-folding requirements post for stacking off then you can 3b value/cbet/play straightforward.
Your opponent is repping QQ+ and the occasional set. You really need to put a lot of spazz bluffs in his range to make this a call. Given his extremely strong line, I find that doubtful.
Ranging villain:
1. Villain 4x's pre UTG in a 1K max BI game. This is decidedly small for a MAWG with QQ+, players who never balance their opens. I am immediately discounting these hands as well as AK.
2. Villain flats pre. I am discounting KK+, especially after hero showed the 4bet bluff; I expect villains to 4bet more often with QQ+ after hero does something like this.
3. Villain x/r's flop. Sure some villains will play KK or AA as a flat pre, but do they come out check-raising flops and bombing turns after they do? Not IME. If they are the type to play big hands passive pre against me when i seem aggro (and yes, I've been in this situation many times value-owning myself against a passive KK or AA), then they continue to play passive. In my experience, this is more consistent with 99-QQ on a low board, and of course a set. However I am discounting 77 due to preflop raise. Most MAWGs would tend to limp/call this.
4. Villain bombs turn. I think I can completely remove 77 now that board has paired. He seems to be interested mostly in scooping up his equity and not letting hero hit a perceived draw. He may very well be trying to "outlag the lag" with a draw himself, something I am very familiar with, when I play laggy, even from villains who otherwise tend to be tight-passive.
In the end, I decide that villain's range is mostly 99-QQ (showing up with KK-AA maybe as often as 88); however I'm discounting 99 because he opened at all (this is an x/c often enough), and discounting QQ because of small sizing pre. I also think there is some small percentage of the time that he shows up with NFD or similar. So my ranging is similar to Niceguy's.
I shoved. He said, "I guess I'm beat but I have to call." He had TT and hero won a big pot. I spoke to this guy later and he told me specifically that my 4bet bluff got me paid, and that he thought I was on a draw after I bet/called flop; so his thought process was just as I expected it to be.
FWIW, not posting this as a brag. I just like to keep track of my big hands and tough/interesting spots.
Last edited by pocketzeroes; 04-29-2017 at 05:22 PM.
I like how everyone who says ship turn does so right after results are posted lol, and before that 7/8 guys say to fold flop or turn. Apparently, everyone becomes a poker wizard on what the correct play is after seeing results.
I think it's close. If you didn't show the 4b bluff pre from UTG, it's a definite fold. You have a really crazy image so you'll get played back here a lot more, but he also has traps like QQ-AA pre that are probably x/ring this flop as well at a decent frequency. I don't mind either option to call or jam turn.
Also helps if you don't have Js. JJ no spade I'm most likely going with it for sure, JJ with spade is closer. QQ+ with or without spade going with it pretty much always. JJ is probably towards the bottom of your betting range on this flop, so if you fold JJ with a spade it's not that big of a deal.
Not sure why you were opening 98s before UTG. It's clearly -EV, and if you like money, you shouldn't be opening it.
I think the 4-bet is pretty bad too. Does he actually 3-bet wide pre, or does he just open wide? Because if it's only the latter, 4-betting here when you block 3-bet bluffs pre like J9s/109s/97s is just really spew. At least have an A or K blocker. Now if you know he 3-bets too wide pre (which is not given in the description), then the 4-bet is just borderline spew, probably okay. If you're going to make this play though, showing the table is pretty mandatory.
