Both villains in this hand are somewhat passive, but V2 does bluff at orphaned pots and has been caught a couple of times.

There was a hand where hero raised pre in EP to 15 and got 4 callers. Flop came AQ5ccd. Checks around. Turn is 6d bringing in BDFD, and hero leads for 70 (I had KJdd). V2 in middle position raised to 150. Hero calls. River bricks and V2 shows AJ.

Hero's image is a bit aggro, but not crazy bluffy. There was a hand where I 3bet K9o otb, then nutted up and went to showdown winning a big pot with a full house against a flopped straight.

Both villains start with about $700. Hero covers.

OTTH:
Preflop... Hero raises to $20 UTG with KQs. Five callers.
Flop ($120)... K66 two toned. Hero decides not to bet, and it checks around.
Turn ($120)... Tx. Hero leads $40. (Bet small bc it's the type of table where random 6x hands are always checking the flop). V1 on my left calls, and V2 a few seats to my left calls.

River ($240)... T, double pairs board and brings in front door flush draw. I hate check/calling or check/folding. So I block bet. $50. V1 folds. V2 thinks for a bit and raises to $150.... Hero 3bets to $425??? (My thinking was that V has some bluffs in his range with JQ, but he also has flushes - I don't think he calls turn with a naked ten and I think he raises a 6).

Flame away. Just curious on thoughts here.

Bet flop.

Bet turn way bigger.

AP, probably x/f since you block a Q and it was 6-way to the flop. River raise is suicide.

Your assumption that villain can't have a T here is extremely bizarre.

You have balls, Sir! Im trying to decide if I like the play or not. I think you have to be at the table to really decide, but I dont hate it.

Not that he can't ever have a T... I just thought it would be very likely he'd fold something like TJ, because (1) hero is PFR, have shown down a lot of strong hands when I've bet, and I lead into 5 others; (2) V2 is very tight passive and has flatted pre with hands like KK and played overpairs and TPTK type hands as check-calls through river, and (3) V2 still has three others left to act behind him, and again this is a very check-happy table where both Kx and 6x are likely checking flop. And V2 is thinking at least a little bit... Also, 3x river raise sizing to my tiny bet felt small to me for a T.

I don't like the bluff 3b.

If V is bluffing the river with air, you're winning. If he has a boat, he's very unlikely to fold. If he had a flush, did he really decide to raise this board OTR? Even LLSNL V's mostly get that a flush on a double paired board is a "check with showdown value" hand. You don't need to bluff out his air (if any), so you're basically 3b bluffing to try to get him to fold a 6. You need this to happen at least 46% of the time to break even. I very much doubt you're anywhere close to getting that.

If we assume that 6's and T's are equally likely, it's 50/50 if he always folds a 6. In fact, I suspect there are more T's than 6's in his range (more hands with a T call pre; at least some 6's found a more aggressive line on the turn; some combos aren't folding -- K6 and 66 spring to mind). Furthermore, I doubt we can confidently assume he always folds any 6. People get sticky with boats.

I think you'll get some folds, but not enough to make this profitable.


I actually think the whole hand was played less than ideally postflop:

OTF, yeah, there might be a six out there, but it's unlikely. You've hit the flop, but you're OOP with eleventy-two callers. Giving a free card to all these people is not a good strategy. The board is pretty dry, which argues for a small bet, but there's a flush draw and a throng involved, which argues for a little larger. I'd make a cbet of about 75. Taking it down here would be a great result for a modest hand OOP.

After betting the flop, I'd either bet/fold the turn on the smaller side (a bit over half the pot) to clear out any loose flop calls and charge any flush draws or x/c for pot control. I'd x/c against a more aggressive V and b/f against a more passive one (such as this one). My usual line would be to bet the turn and then x the river, planning to call up to about a PSB on most cards. With this V and runout, I'd be more likely to x/f to anything more than about half the pot.

Both "bet flop" and "bet turn way bigger" sound like a good way to value-own myself, being first to act in a 6-player pot. It's not that I can never get a worse K to call me, but at least a couple players here are flatting pre with AK, and once a couple biggish streets of money gets into the pot - if called, I'm probably behind.

folding range on river is probably too narrow. A T is never folding.

In other words, he may have folded, but if he did he probably folded because you had the best hand and a call would've yielded the same result. Maybe you can get him off exactly a 6...and that's player-dependent.

Risk $275 to win $440 that H is good or V has, and folds, a 6 on a K66TT board
Risk $100 to win $440 that H is good (call)
~=
Risk $175 to win $440 that V has, and folds, a 6 on a K66TT board

Great play /s

I don't think I'm giving many 6s at all to V2, especially given he raised AJ on the turn on an AQxx board when I (slightly) overpotted it...

I like your flop check. You have a medium strength hand and facing a super-multi way pot.

OTR, V can pretty easily have a T here. You checked flop and bet very small on turn. I think any Tx he calls pre with continues here.

I kind of hate your entire river play. If you're making a blocker bet, it has to be because you don't think V is capable of bluffing or value raising light. Is he raising a flush here? Seems like he'd often just call. If he raises 6x, can he fold it? I don't want to try to bluff someone off of a full house.

^

My thought was really that V1 likely has a K and would call a very small bet if he did, but would also flat with a flush. So if V1 calls, then I think V2's hands are tied. However, after V1 folds, then V2's play is a bit more uncertain.

Are you calling turn with a hand like TJ when UTG raiser leads into 5 players, you have 3 left to act behind you, and V1 is a tight passive?

Of course not, but I'm not V2.

V2's raising range OTR does not include flushes, are you nuts. He has a ten the vast majority of the time, occasionally has a pure bluff and occasionally has 66. The bluff threebet is suicide, he'd call even if he thought about it but he won't, he'll just toss chips in.

Here's a question: What do you think your hand looks like when you lead river? I mean, you bet turn when a T came down and got called in two places, the river paired the T and completed the flush and you bet small. Do you think villain is under the impression that you're bluffing? "He's soulreading me for having flopped one pair, K's, but checked it, then kept betting river through the worst possible river card" is not believable to me in the slightest.

I'm kind of amused that you block bet, got raised (thus getting your answer) and then reraised anyway. If you think you're bluffcatching or something, then check call?

Would expect he raises a T or bluff, and calls with K, 6, or flush.

Bad players block/call all the time. You can only justify your river play here with a read or instinct or whatever.

Maybe? I don't know, you're not representing much with a raise pre, a flop check and a 1/3 sized pot bet on turn. The only reason I'd fold is so many people still to act behind, but in game I probably do call, and certainly wouldn't expect someone else to fold. I'd have thought the main reason to bet so small on the turn is to get looked up by Tx.

I don't like the blocker bet, but the whole point of it is to get him to tell you that he has better by raising. If you blocker bet once he raises you have to let it go, because it's not at all clear he'd raise a flush, and even if he did he's passive and could call with it. This seems like one of those hands where even if you have him ranged exactly for a flush, it's hard to know whether he can let it go on a double paired board. So, sometimes you range him correctly and he still calls you. Other times your range was wrong, he has a boat, and he definitely calls you.

I bet 1/5th pot on the river. Of course he's raising flushes - at least some of the time.

I am definitely seeing more and more river raises for thinner value than I used to. Villains are raising trips when the straight comes, raising straights when the flush comes or board pairs, raising flushes when board pairs, shoving with sets on straightening boards, shoving underfulls, etc.

Your image is somewhat aggro, villain is passive, your hand looks a lot like Tx. Villain value raising a flush here would be pretty odd.

What's your read on V2? In the OP you say he's somewhat passive, but does bluff at orphaned pots. You later say he's very tight passive and that he's check called hands like KK pre and overpairs post. You later say he raised AJ on an AQx after you bet slight over pot, which is actually a very aggressive raise.

My view of this is that if V2 is very passive we should check/fold. Hard to get called by worse, and if he bets river we are pretty much always beat because a very passive player wouldn't bet a hand worse than KQ and is going to have a hard time folding a flush or bottom boat. If V2 is aggressive and bluffy, we can check/evaluate and call a lot based on sizing.

Prefer betting flop for smallish but check is ok. Turn is meh. I prefer 65ish sizing.

River betting 50 makes no sense. Too thin for value I think. We getting called by A high and 77-99? I just x/fold or mby call the river.

As played I fold to his river raise. 3b river is total spew.

V1 is very tight passive, and the one who flatted pre (not once, but twice) with KK, and is check/calling stuff like TPTK. The fact that he calls the turn is why I think V2's not flatting Tx. It's just way too likely that Tx is a two-outer.

V2 is somewhat passive, but that's by my fairly aggro standards - he's probably more what you guys would consider a normal reg player.

OK, you mislabeled in your post around 10 AM which confused me.

I'd still expect V2 to call a lot with Tx to such a small bet. He may not care about V1's image the same way that you do. Note that if V1 is very tight passive, that's even more reason to check/fold river.

KQ makes for a great 3x bet-f at 1/3 pot 1/3 pot 1/3 pot against this lineup and likely gets you HU heading to the river a lot against far narrower pair heavy ranges.

On this river, facing a call and overcall ott, you have a pretty easy river check/mostly folding against passive players.

AP you easily can be perceived to have Tx and passives raising a board like this facing action is just too often the nuts no matter what happened prior.

There are a lot of worse hands that can peel this flop. A bet OTF is not thin. AK 3-bet at some decent frequency preflop, and is discounted. There are way more combos of Kx than AK. Not to mention a ton of flush draws.

As I think about this hand more, KT makes perfect sense for V given the reads. Flushes make sense up to the river, but often just call the river bet. KT would check behind on flop (pretty marginal hand in a 6-way pot), happily call the turn bet (ahead of all other KX other than K6 which is pretty unlikely) and now is the nuts on a double paired board.

There are just as many sixes left in the deck as kings... And when I'm seeing flops get called 5-ways, I'm not automatically assigning ranges where there are a ton more Kx hands getting called pre than 6x hands.

Yes, I can get flop called by worse. I have no doubt that it's +EV on this street to bet here. The problem is the turn and river. If we continue to bet, I think we're value-owning ourselves. If we check OOP in a biggish pot, even some of the fishiest of villains will have a balanced betting range and will essentially play their range perfectly against us.