Hey guys. New to the forum. Never really had too many people to analyze hands with. Thought this might be something that I could help other people and get help as well.

Utg (~650 tight aggressive reg), Cuttoff (~600 slightly loose aggressive reg) SB (~350 recreational player) hero (~775).

UTG raises to 20, cutoff calls, I see JTo on the button I call, SB 3bets to 110. He hasn't 3 bet a single time in 3 hours making me think he is definitely JJ+ and AQs+. UTG calls and cutoff calls. I am unsure but being deep and seeing that SB and UTG slow down and will pot control on scary boards. So I figure it is kind of loose but some amount of time I can get to turn and river cheaply. So I call.

Flop comes 10 9 8 rainbow. Sb open shoves, UTG calls and cutoff calls. I'm stuck in a hard place wondering what to do. I feel there is some merit to folding calling and shoving. Folding seems tight especially when I figure the SB and utg are QQ+ after the flop action. Then cutoff I figure he can have all his pair plus combos, two pairs. I didn't consider straights because he would shove over and 88 99 and 1010, he has shown to 3 bet pre almost 100% of the time when we have seen him go to showdown or flip over his cards out of anger. Against those ranges I feel I have pretty decent equity. Even better if one of them doesn't have queens.

Calling seems alright. I can probably evaluate turn but then lose value if I do improve as many hands fold when I improve cause board is too wet when I improve so my implied odds kind of just disappear and I only get immediate odds. So I feel calling is kind of out of the question.

Now raising. I can likely get a fold from UTG and cutoff if I shove over. Isolating and likely going heads up against AA or KK seeing that he open shipped. Hero??


Any insight on how I could have played it better? I guess folding pre being that it was a 3bet pot but these guys have shown to stack off light. And being decently deep I thought we definitely should call.

Welcome to the forum. It's best not to put results in the initial post, as it can influence the feedback you might get.

Having said that...I already knew what I was going to post before I saw the results.

Honestly - this is a badly misplayed hand. Pre-flop is a snap fold, as you said the SB is essentially playing his hand face up, and he has you absolutely crushed. You're nowhere deep enough to commit $110 pre, especially considering the SB only has $350 to start. Your comment that "I figure it is kind of loose but some amount of time I can get to turn and river cheaply" is absurd. Once you call the pot is $440 and the SB has $240 behind, they are first to act are shoving any flop. You're never seeing a turn or river cheaply.

As played, on the flop we can range SB on JJ+. If the other players fold, we should call as we are easily priced in, although behind. But they didn't fold, two other players showed great strength and called. One of them could easily have had QJ and you'd be drawing dead, I'd expect a set to show up here too. The hands you were up against were essentially the best you could ever hope for, and you were drawing thin for a stack off.

The key error on this hand was your pre-flop play. You seem like you're genuinely trying to work on your game, and I commend you for that. You need to go through your thought process there in a detailed way and consider where things went wrong.

Fold pre both times. As played shove flop.

Ok I will remember to leave results out to keep from influencing people's opinions. And it was silly of me. When I saw badly misplayed, in my head I got defensive and my pride got ahead of me. And I posted because I was thinking exactly what you were that a preflop fold might have been the best decision. But I felt I had a tight image at the table and this would definitely balance my range and disguise the strength of my hand. I doubt they were ever think I would play J10 in this spot. But I also disagree slightly with you. I don't think I ever see QJ in this position from the way the hand played out. I would say with nearly 100% certainty the SB and UTG player had big pairs. Leaving the cutoff with the only person who could have QJ in this spot. And I wouldn't put it past him to have it. But he showed many times to not be a slow player. He almost always decides to raise when he has a hand. So after a shove and call. I would see him shoving 100% of the time when he is faced with that action. And I ruled out set in this spot because he has shown to 3 bet those hands very often. So he would have been the one to 3bet. Not go call-call. The way he played this hand seemed more like a J9, J10, 109, 108 97 or 87. That was only the case after call on the flop. He could have had most any amount of suites connectors and one gappers. So like I thought most of his pairs plus draws and 2 pairs. Most of which I have decent percentage against. I also felt that he may fold considering he may be drawing to a house or dead if I shove over. With my shove after that action, looks like immense strength which would put a high pair to a very hard decision which I'm surprised he call. And then these 2 pairs and pairs plus combos should have a very hard time calling as well. So I felt that I could definitely get better to fold with a shove over leading to a substantial amount of dead money from their calls.

I was thinking my optimal situation would be me against small blind likely having AA or KK. Which I have a 44.65 % chance. So I agree that preflop fold could be a good line. But I disagree because I feel some amount of the time this line should be taken. Sometimes it's the unorthodoxed plays that improve a player rather than always playing it by the book or numbers. Wouldn't you agree?

Also I lately to be honest I have been trying a few different plays to merge my ranges a little better and do things a little different. I have always been a tight aggressive player. But have felt this one dimensional style can be exploited. I wanted to try playing loose aggressive so that if the opportunity presents itself I can play that style. Right now it's tough. I get out in tough decisions. But I have noticed and learned more of physical and timing tells than anythi my since I need to rely on that sometimes during this stuff decisions.

But yeah thinking more about it. I am liking the preflop fold a little more. Oh well, live and learn. Couple hundred down the drain

Welcome to the forum, I hope you enjoy your time here.

Snap fold pre flop.
It's not even close.

If I saw you play your hand this way I would never leave your table until you were out of money.
Also, please try and use paragraphs, and line spaces, and formatting, and other things to take away from the massive walls of text that you have created.

Thank you,
irtm

OP, JTs would have been fine to call the first time around but you'd still need to fold to the 3! JTo is a complete non-stater.

There are occasional times where a float or unorthodox play is merited. This hand, where the SB is playing his monster pocket pair face up, and they are clearly committed to jamming on any flop, is the worst possible time to make a move like this.

You're simply praying you'll flop 2 pair or a straight. Anything else and you're hopelessly behind. And in some cases, you'll hit enough of the flop to get drawn deeper and deeper in, committing more money in the hope you'll spike your out.

Not a good time to try to balance your range, etc. Just fold.

On the flop, as you said the SB clearly has a big pair. He jammed for $200+ more and then UTG called. After that, the CO calling should raise big alarm bells. I agree SB and UTG wouldn't show up with QJ, but CO absolutely could. 88 or 99 seems in their range too.

With your shove, it's possible UTG folds, though I think once they decide to commit to the initial $200 bet they likely aren't folding given how massive the pot is. I can't see any scenario where the CO folds to your shove. They obviously have a big hand, the pot is huge, and they aren't folding.

We can agree to disagree here. You asked for honest feedback, and I'm giving it. Poker is a complex game and I make mistakes every night I play. However, your play pre-flop here was disastrous. The only way you can really improve is to understand why this is, and tighten up this leak so it doesn't continue to happen. Key pre-flop mistakes like this can get very costly, and rapidly compound on themselves.

No I feel you guys. Thinking more about it more I like the fold pre. Was a silly spot. And sorry didn't notice I put JTo. It was JTs. I guess yes I was trying not only for the big money on this hand but high hand of the 2 hours that was up to $2050. Thinking more I let the thought of winning the pot and the high hand effect my decision making negatively.

Looking back at the post I have that typo and one or two word typos. Need to look over my post for accuracy. Sorry

Stick to tight aggressive and focus on reading your players. Try to understand ranges, both yours and others, based on position, action, opponent types/skill level, etc.

As you play more the looseness will naturally come out because you will be so much more comfortable in different spots.

Attempting to push a lag style will result in a lot of tuition being paid, instead of it being reimbursed though tag play - if you get what I mean.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk

As played? I think we should jam flop, thats the best flop we can ever have after putting 1/6 of our stack in pre and having a bunch of people going all in making a huge pot if we win. Ranges for the other players all ins are going to be extremley wide due to the fact that they decided they were pot committed pre. they could be as light as A8, KQ, KJ, AJ, 77, etc.

Anytime two overcalls of a shove in front of you on three to a straight and you're open ended you can bet at least 3 of your outs are dead. Some not terribly unreasonable amount of time you'll be drawing to a chop with at least one of them. Add it all up and the fact that you'll probably need to dodge the board pairing = not the best spot to gamble. Then again, if you came to gamble, this is pretty ideal, so stick it in and sweat the runout

Also ship pre looks a lot like AA and if youre called you have decent equity against most holdings (barring JJ).

I vote for ship pre.

Merging range would be more like you overbet shipping KK on QT986

You should probably tighten up your preflop range, J10 off shouldnt call a big sized 3 bet. On the flop i think this is a def fold, Sb could have JJ which has you destroyed, and the other villains could have JQ and slop play since there are not any flush draws.
In conclusion, tighten up pre flop. A call on the flop isnt bad but shoving will never be called by anything better and will most likely not get anything better to fold besides A10 or K10.

Couple notes.
Since it was JTs calling first raise is fine but fold to 3b.
Calling a raise and then a 3b is not playing LAG
Merging/Balance and similiar stuff is pretty unimportant at your standard LLSNL. In fact some of the most profitable plays you can make at LLSNL is extremely exploitable but since almost nobody pays attention you can get away with it. Concentrate on the more basic stuff people do at LLSNL and you can clean up at these stakes.