2-5 NL 88 OTB 240 BB's deep

[aaronk56]

Villain 1 is a young Russian who has been opening with nearly ATC. He has been at the table for about 4 orbits and has played at least half the hands. Twice he has raised first in with 53o once winning a big pot against TPGK and the other time winning a small pot with a pair of 5s. He has been very aggressive post flop but will slow down.

Villain 2 is his friend also young Russian. I have played with him a few times. Once when he was in the middle of an incredible heater where he played very aggressive but the other times he has been aggressive but not crazy. He has 3 bet a couple times in the past hour but other than c-betting he has played pretty much fit or fold post.

Both villains have about $1,200 and I cover.

My image is probably is probably Tight aggressive I have been coming into pots raising. I 4 bet shoved AKo into two relatively short stacks earlier and got two folds including a bad older woman who folded KK face up LOL. I did not show. I also raised and C-Bet a flop with AQo. hit a Queen on the flop but folded to a big raise after checking the turn to huge stack who had me covered when the flush draw got there. This was a mistake on my part. Villain showed bottom pair and no draw. I didn't show and claimed to have no pair. I don't randomly C-bet multiway trying to only C-bet boards which should hit my perceived range, Heads-up I'll C-bet nearly always regardless of the board.



On to the hand. We are 7 or 8 handed, folds to Villain 1 in middle position who makes it $20. This is his standard raise and he could be doing this with almost anything. One fold and Villain 2 flats in the CO. His range is very wide here but probably doesn't include any premiums, he probably 3 bets TT+, AQ+.

I'm on the button with 88 and I make $80.

My thinking is I'm ahead of both their ranges, I want initiative, I have position and I have a tight image so I can represent a lot of strong hand if high cards flop, so I'm not just playing for set value here. If I take it down preflop that isn't bad too.

Everyone folds except for both villains who flat.

($240) Flop is T42 rainbow.

Villain 1 leads out for $200, Villain 2 folds. The board misses my perceived range and villain 1 probably knows that. The flop is not that bad for me with only one over and virtually no draws.

I did not expect him to donk, especially on such a dry flop so I'm confused. I think calling, raising or folding are viable.

[ThierryHenry]

With your read that Villain 1 is aggressive postflop I think folding is probably a bit too weak. It is a concern that he's leading into 2 players, but like you said, this board is not really hitting your perceived range very hard. His sizing is also on the larger size. It just seems to me his range is weighted towards hands that want a fold. I don't like raising because it would be mainly for information. I guess you'd fold out 99 and weak Ts, but you're not going to get called by worse. I prefer to call the flop donk and go from there.

[S1L3N7KN1GH7]

Do we like the 3-bet pre-flop?

[tmckendry]

I like the 3bet preflop.

With a read like this "He has been very aggressive post flop but will slow down." I think we should call the flop, fold most turns to more aggression. When we flat our range is fairly face-up as JJ-AA.

[jimbobwe00]

I want to raise flop small, like to $240. If he comes over the top we can fold, and if he calls then barrels turn we can fold. In my experience he's a lot more likely to slow down on turn and river if you raise flop and you want to get to showdown with this hand. Although it sounds counterintuitive I would raise here BECAUSE I don't want to play a big pot. He's checking almost every turn when he doesn't just fold flop.

[jimbobwe00]

Originally Posted by jimbobwe00

I want to raise flop small, like to $240. If he comes over the top we can fold, and if he calls then barrels turn we can fold. In my experience he's a lot more likely to slow down on turn and river if you raise flop and you want to get to showdown with this hand. Although it sounds counterintuitive I would raise here BECAUSE I don't want to play a big pot. He's checking almost every turn when he doesn't just fold flop.

Er, misread, thought he led $100. It's a little tougher now cause of stack sizes but I still kind of like a flop raise.

[spooner90]

Good 3b sizing, I don't mind calling either as he would have to be very stubborn to continue barreling vs your range if a blank hits (unless you don't think he slows down with TPTK, which I'm unsure if he would flat your 3b with that pre anyway). It seems unlikely that he has got any of that board and is just being over-aggressive as you described him initially. We can't r/f therefore as we are essentially committing a hand to two outs if he jams and we can fold most turns if he spazzes out (all besides non T and 8 turns).

If you described him as an agro-maniac that would continue barreling with ATC I would raise flop

[CoachMcGuirk]

Originally Posted by jimbobwe00

Er, misread, thought he led $100. It's a little tougher now cause of stack sizes but I still kind of like a flop raise.

I don't really like this at all. Even if you make a minraise he has less than a PSB behind if he flats this raise. You are almost advocating raising here to find out if we're good, or to "see where we're at", betting/raising purely for information is bad and a common misconception among bad live players. (Not saying that you adhere to this philosophy but that's almost the spot that raising here puts us in). You could make a case that you could merge a little bit with a flop raise but I doubt this guy heroes you with a hand like 4x or 77. Pretty much all you do is fold out his bluffs and occasionally turn your hand into a bluff as he might fold some 10x's here. What do you do if villain flats here? You are pretty much always beat if he calls, do you jam turn to get him off a ten, just hope both turn and river go check/check? I probably flat flop and reevaluate from there. Would most likely fold turn to further aggression depending on his sizing. I also like the 3 bet preflop fwiw.

[Falcone]

It should be obvious that if we expect villain to fold Tx, raising the flop is great (as a pure bluff). But I don't think that's a reasonable expectation.

I would probably fold here absent any clear reads about his leading range, although that's pretty weak. I just hate calling big bets on the flop when I know I'll have to fold on 95% of all turns.

I'd also not 3b pre.

[jimbobwe00]

I advocate for raising flop to obtain initiative and help prevent ourself from making a bad mistake on the turn. When we raise flop villain is almost always checking every turn which allows us to check behind. He often checks river, too. I hate folding here, but calling isnt great either IMO unless we're definitely calling every turn bet on every turn card. Calling flop just to fold to a second barrel is so weak.

Im not sure I love my line so I'm really just throwing it out there for criticism. I hope I at least make some sense though.

[jimbobwe00]

For example, if we had AT here I would advocate to raise flop for the same reason- if he calls and then barrels turn we can be nearly positive we're beat, he nearly always checks turn if he calls behind which allows us to get to SD cheaper than if we called a second barrel, and we have a better idea of the strength of his hand. Since there aren't a lot of Ts in villains range 88 is very similar in strength to AT here.

[surfbuddha]

I like the 3Bet Pre including the sizing.

I think I would fold this on the flop. We have to fold to any further aggression and we do not have any equity to improve.

Wait for better spots!

[jimbobwe00]

Originally Posted by surfbuddha

I like the 3Bet Pre including the sizing.

I think I would fold this on the flop. We have to fold to any further aggression and we do not have any equity to improve.

Wait for better spots!

There is no point bloating the pot pre with a middle pair if we fold to aggression on a flop with one overcard. If we're determined to fold these types of flops, we might as well flat pre and setmine. People who like the 3bet pre (including me) shouldn't like folding this flop.

[surfbuddha]

Originally Posted by jimbobwe00

There is no point bloating the pot pre with a middle pair if we fold to aggression on a flop with one overcard. If we're determined to fold these types of flops, we might as well flat pre and setmine. People who like the 3bet pre (including me) shouldn't like folding this flop.

From OPs description Villain should calm down Postflop especially in a 3Bet-Pot. Therefore I do see many made Hands in his range if he starts donking that high (TX, Two Pair). There might be a percentage of bluffs in his range but that's too expensive to find out, especially if he hits some of his overs on later streets.

The Preflop plan was to take it down on the flop a good percentage of time or coming cheap to the showdown without facing major aggression (board texture dependend). If that was the plan then stick to it.

If we have the read that V1 is a spewtard and is doing this with ATC then I like 3Bet/Shove Flop more than a call. But that was not my impression.

If we call I do see two scenarios too often. We call and coming cheap to the showdown loosing to TX (60bb) or we are trying to float (FPS) and loosing to TX (>120bb)

[JustPlayingSmart]

I don't like the 3-bet. If we make a set with 88 and the button, we should be able to get a lot if not all of our stack in the pot. I would much rather 3-bet something like KQ, because I think that these guys are gonna be defending 3bets super light, so strong broadways will dominate their calling ranges. Also, generally when KQ is outflopped, it will have 25% equity, while 88 will only have 10% equity. Are you gonna be happy bet/bet/betting on J2377 with 88 getting all in? Probably not. But with KQ on Q2377 you are loving it.

On this flop, I would probably fold. Your perceived range is overpairs, so in reality, this flop is good for them. However, I doubt your villain is thinking about your perceived range very much other than you have "AK." He is probably betting out with a ten. You could attempt to raise him off of it if you think that will work. It might. If I did try that, I would min raise flop and jam turn. I don't expect the minraise to lose him, but I think it helps set up a more convincing story (with the added benefit of when it works we gain an extra $200). If you are just going to try one raise and no 2nd barrel, I think you might need to go to like $700 on the flop. The added benefit of minraise/jam turn is that an overcard might come that would scare him into folding a ten.

Folding isn't a disaster by any means. It probably makes them more likely to call your 3-bets in the future, which is what you want.