Reads: V1 is late 20s or so asian who seems timid post flop. He has played draws passively and once checked down top pair, no kicker in a limped pot (there was a flush completion on the turn, but he should have at least tried to get one street of value). But he is fairly loose in raising pre flop. V2 is an unknown TAG. My image is fine.

Folds to me with 5 players left to act. Played to my immediate left is very LAG post flop. My normal strategy is to raise 56 here but thought the LAG behind made it a call or fold.

LAG limps behind, button (V1) makes it 30, V2 calls in the SB, BB folds. It's now about 700 effective vs V1 and 450 effective vs V2. I make it 120.

and?

if you are just asking what we think of the raise, i dont like it at all. the way i play 56s like that is to call the pre flop raises and then when you hit the flop with either 2 pair, fd or sd, you can take the $ from the pre flop raisers and their premium hands who never see it coming.

I like to hit with those hands and play for stacks down the line, not try to bluff pre flop for a few extra bucks.

Will work some of the time depending on your villains. In general it isn't a good line because of the huge risk/reward problem. Your risking 120 to win something around 60, so you need to win 2/3 of the time just to break even. Even if V1 is squeezing a lot, occasionally he will have a big hand and call/reraise, he may also call/raise lighter because your line looks so FOS.

You may get away with this once, because they may give you credit for limp/raising a big hand to try and trap the first time. If you do it more then once it will quickly ruin your image.

Good tool to have in the arsenal, should be used sparingly imo.

If V1 raises raises BTN disproportionately, seems like a good spot. If V2 is TAG, eff stack too short to set-mine (i.e. call).

Nevermind, responded in wrong thread.

Isn't the required success rate pre flop 61.54%, not 66.66%? This can change the hand from a bluff to fold or vice versa. And that's not taking into account either villain just calling pre, giving me a free shot to make a strong hand or profitable bluff...afterall even against AA my hand has an above 0% chance of flopping 2pair+. It's impossible to say what the true min required success rate is but wouldn't it be something like 55% or less?

Let's throw some numbers out there: If the button folds 65% and the blind folds 65%, then they both fold 42.25%....

Assuming you always lose when your called or raised then you do need to win 2/3 to break even. 1 time in 3 you lose 120 and 2 times you win 60, for exactly 0 EV. When reraised your done with the hand unless villain has such a small stack your forced to call, but in that case the hand is massively -EV overall. Precise calculation when villains call is impossible, but a bloated pot with a drawing hand is not a good situation. Sometimes you will win more but sometimes you will lose more. Overall being called probably works in your favor with a disguised hand but your still winning so rarely it won't move the overall EV much.

But we win 75 if it succeeds, not 60. And theres no rake if there's no flop.

More important than how they are playing post flop is how they are playing pre flop.

Are they raising a lot? 3betting a lot?
Folding to 3bets? Generally laggy, taggy, passive, nitty?

All of these things will be more important than their post flop tendencies when we are making a play that we are expecting to win with pre flop.
Esp given that we will have almost no room to move post flop, will be oop, and will have an almighty 6 high on a lot of boards drawing to 15% or less equity.

With better reads it could be fine. With better reads it could be terrible.

Overall, I don't like it given the information that I have (that you have.)

If it's your regular game and want to balance your l/rr range, then I think it's fine.

+1

If you're going to do this, better to do it from EP than MP as you'll get more credit.

Overall though, I have to think it's best to just fold here with two fairly loose players behind.

Unless you are seen as a uber-nit your line makes no sense. Do you normally limp/raise big pairs and AK from late position? If you are opening those hands, anyone half-decent is going to know you have doodoo. It might work once or twice, but don't expect long-term +EV with these stack sizes. Let's say you get called and the flop comes AK7r, what's your plan? How about a Q83 flop? I doubt you're just going to c/f, so you're either firing once and shutting down when called if you don't pick up any equity on the turn, double barrel bluffing off your stack, or giving up.

why on earth would you want to do this?

Here's my l/rr range: { }

Because the only reason I'm limping in the first place are when I don't have aggressive players behind me who are going to exploit my limping.

I hate the very idea of a l/rr bluff. I think it's horrendous spew. The kinds of players who are raising preflop so frequently that they could be exploited with a l/rr are quite often the kinds of players who are calling anyway. And 65s is as bad a hand as you could do it with. The shallower you are the more important equity rather than playability is. You're not getting someone off top pair with SPR of 2. Whereas if you call a raise in position with SPR 10 and flop a draw you can get into a really profitable spot where you have equity and fold equity.

caveat, it's poker, never say never, there are situations where l/rr bluff is good, but this is not it.

Yes, your profitability will be slightly better if there are limpers and blinds to steal. However, there is also the chance any of those players have a big hand so your chance of the steal working goes down slightly for each additional person. This is a special move you can pull off very rarely when the situation is right, but the risk/reward ratio means it's not worth it as a general move. You shouldn't be looking for opportunities to do this, it's something to remember in the rare case when things line up. The situation you describe doesn't look good enough to me, though it isn't terrible either.

What? Where are you playing that they don't take a rake pre-flop? I'm buying a plane ticket asap...

i like the play if you play with these players a lot but if you don't then balancing plays like this are stupid

Vegas rooms don't have preflop rake except Golden Nugget and WSOP...

Oh damn... nvm... I've played in Vegas. Those games can get rough.

3 of the 4 major places that I've played on the east coast don't take rake pre flop either.
No flop no drop.

A horrible reason to justify a horrible play. If you're gonna l/rr, which you shouldn't, at least do it in EP with Axs. Not trash like 65s which has horrible equity.

Results: Button insta folds. SB tank shoves, I fold.

Lol, I thought that was some sort of fantasy dream that I had had one time or something... I play in Tampa... they take a rake and sometimes even a jackpot before the flop. Sorry to derail.