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2/5 KK 4-Bet Pot 250bb+ Deep 2/5 KK 4-Bet Pot 250bb+ Deep

05-21-2016 , 03:38 PM
2/5
7-Handed

(Sb) $1850 Hero: KK
(Button) $1450 Villain: LAGtard (not a maniac), make super thin hero-calls OTR, will semi-bluff and over-bluff the flop with complete garbage, calls and raises super wide preflop (high VPIP i guess).
Havent seen him semi-bluff turns or bet when xed to a lot though he is VERY AGRO.

Preflop: UTG whale raises to 10, Villain 3-bets to 25 OTB, Hero 4-bets to 85, Only Villain calls (HU)


Flop, Pot = 185
QT3
Hero bets 100, Villain calls

Turn, Pot = 385
2
Hero bets 175, Villain tank-raises to 425, Hero...?

-Not a bad turn card improves none of his ranges obviously i can't call turn w/o a plan to call off a lot of rivers vs. this LAGtard. Given this i think betting was more +EV then check-calling here... esp given his stationy tendencies
-Does villain have a bluffing range in this spot (he has a very small value range now OTT, combos of 33, TT, QQ, QT... being very generous with the QT and 33)
2/5 KK 4-Bet Pot 250bb+ Deep Quote
05-21-2016 , 03:50 PM
is this his first 3bet?

how often have you 4bet?

- how is he agro if he never bets when checked too? Isn't that the definition of agro?
2/5 KK 4-Bet Pot 250bb+ Deep Quote
05-21-2016 , 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by djevans
is this his first 3bet?

how often have you 4bet?

- how is he agro if he never bets when checked too? Isn't that the definition of agro?
First 4-bet perceived as a nit/TAG.

No he's 3-bet super thinly i guess for value he 3-bet my UTG open with pocket JJ's in a squeeze spot he goes too thin preflop.

He won't like bet his entire range when xed to... played a hand with him where he checked back TPTK OOP on a monotone board for 2 streets then river was a 4th flush and over and he got scared.
2/5 KK 4-Bet Pot 250bb+ Deep Quote
05-21-2016 , 04:04 PM
you having the Kh kinda sucks for his semi-bluff combos. Though wouldn't he have just raised the flop with QQ/TT?

If he's smart and he thinks you are a nit, he knows you are going to have a tough time calling down on this board with AA/KK. meh, I might level myself into a calldown here, though this should be a fold against 95% of LLSNL opponents.
2/5 KK 4-Bet Pot 250bb+ Deep Quote
05-21-2016 , 04:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubey
Though wouldn't he have just raised the flop with QQ/TT?
Maybe, if i never have stuff like FD's in my betting range OTF don't think he needs to have a raising range here, i will be betting all the AK combos OTF tho.
2/5 KK 4-Bet Pot 250bb+ Deep Quote
05-21-2016 , 05:40 PM
Vs. a LAGtard who's capable of making bad semi-bluffs, I'm calling turn and calling a lot of rivers. I'd also size flop/turn slightly larger this deep on a fairly wet board.
2/5 KK 4-Bet Pot 250bb+ Deep Quote
05-22-2016 , 12:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RAHZero
I'd also size flop/turn slightly larger this deep on a fairly wet board.
Yep obvious mistake on my part i think this is a board texture where i should be betting like 2/3-near pot and no less. I always bet half pot by default in 3-bet or 4-bet pots its such a fkn bad habit of mine, from now on will stop auto-piloting...

Okay well what am i calling here in this spot if i'm folding KK?
AA or a set of QQ i would call obv (maybe even fold AA)?
You bring up a good point esp vs. a LAGtard.

This villain is such a bad hand reader it's so unreal still i look like im playing pretty face up, but i don't wanna overthink it...
2/5 KK 4-Bet Pot 250bb+ Deep Quote
05-22-2016 , 12:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RAHZero
Vs. a LAGtard who's capable of making bad semi-bluffs, I'm calling turn and calling a lot of rivers. I'd also size flop/turn slightly larger this deep on a fairly wet board.
Agree for the most part. Probably going bigger pre, otf, and ott. As played though, I am calling ott and reevaluating.


Do we know anything about his sizing? 3! To 25 when a whale raises to 10 seems so small. While hand seems odd, generally when lines make no sense in big pots it's a value line but you make it sound like this LAG villain is sucseptible to showing up with weird stuff here.
2/5 KK 4-Bet Pot 250bb+ Deep Quote
05-22-2016 , 12:50 AM
Here are the results.

Spoiler:
Hero tank-folded, Villain shows 86

So yeah he called a 4-bet with fk-all.
I mean the wider his range is preflop the more bluffs he should have postflop, but say if i was vs. a TAG/nit really what bluffs COULD they have because they really doesn't get postflop with any of those speculative hands.

Think the crux is what do his calling ranges look like preflop and i totally just zoned out here...
2/5 KK 4-Bet Pot 250bb+ Deep Quote
05-24-2016 , 08:09 PM
Is anyone checking the flop in this spot in a 4-bet pot? Intending to x-call.

If i get raised OTF once i bet i'm prolly not folding given his tendencies + he calls super wide OTF for a bet to not be +EV.
2/5 KK 4-Bet Pot 250bb+ Deep Quote
05-24-2016 , 08:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evoxgsr96
Is anyone checking the flop in this spot in a 4-bet pot? Intending to x-call.

If i get raised OTF once i bet i'm prolly not folding given his tendencies + he calls super wide OTF for a bet to not be +EV.
I would definitely check in position, shallower and with a less dangerous board, with the intention of letting him spew.

This is the kind of board I hate calling down multiple streets on, OFC that may say more about my weakness as a player than whether the tactic is good or not.

Position is important though and I think wanting that advantage when deep if we're going to get tricky with an aggro villain is important.
2/5 KK 4-Bet Pot 250bb+ Deep Quote
05-24-2016 , 08:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBeer
I would definitely check in position, shallower and with a less dangerous board, with the intention of letting him spew.

This is the kind of board I hate calling down multiple streets on, OFC that may say more about my weakness as a player than whether the tactic is good or not.

Position is important though and I think wanting that advantage when deep if we're going to get tricky with an aggro villain is important.
Yeah totally agreed

Yeah my range is sort of face up once i 4-bet preflop so i think position would help a lot here.

I think we should have a "plan" if we are going to x-call down in this spot, just cause this villain is super agro LAGtard.

I think regardless this is going to be a 2 street hand, my plan was just to 3-barrel given his stationy bluff-catchy tendencies. I've seen this guy over-play hands before and go for thin value a lot... like i wouldn't be suprised if he triple barreled something like Qx in this spot when xed to OTF.
2/5 KK 4-Bet Pot 250bb+ Deep Quote
05-24-2016 , 08:51 PM
This really isn't a 4-bet IMO. It's a 3-bet.

The $10 raise is LOL. $25 is a normal $2/$5 raise. So you make it $85. That is a very normal 3-bet size.

He can call wider with $1400+ stacks.

Call turn. Soul read river.
2/5 KK 4-Bet Pot 250bb+ Deep Quote
05-24-2016 , 09:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ibelieveyouoweme$80k
This really isn't a 4-bet IMO. It's a 3-bet.

The $10 raise is LOL. $25 is a normal $2/$5 raise. So you make it $85. That is a very normal 3-bet size.

He can call wider with $1400+ stacks.

Call turn. Soul read river.
Really good thoughts/advice thank you man.

How do i soul read the river? Plan if a comes?
2/5 KK 4-Bet Pot 250bb+ Deep Quote
05-24-2016 , 10:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evoxgsr96
Yeah totally agreed

Yeah my range is sort of face up once i 4-bet preflop so i think position would help a lot here.

I think we should have a "plan" if we are going to x-call down in this spot, just cause this villain is super agro LAGtard.

I think regardless this is going to be a 2 street hand, my plan was just to 3-barrel given his stationy bluff-catchy tendencies. I've seen this guy over-play hands before and go for thin value a lot... like i wouldn't be suprised if he triple barreled something like Qx in this spot when xed to OTF.
Sort of irrelevant post but... this is how he played KK vs. another Grinder Reg.

Didn't see preflop action.

Flop
747
Grinder reg x, Villain x

Turn
T
Grinder reg bets 2/3 pot, Villain just flats

River
2
Grinder reg says: "If i bet here will you call me with A-high" throws out a $100 black chip, Villain raises to 250 with KK, Grinder reg sigh-calls and tables KJ for a flush and wins.
2/5 KK 4-Bet Pot 250bb+ Deep Quote

      
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