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| Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies. |
06-16-2012, 08:44 AM
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#1
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 4,614
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2-5 Flopped two pair
This hand happened at the Borgata at about 9am. A little more than half the players had been going all night, including a spewtard whale that I had followed from another table (he had already dropped about 3K in the last 3 hours).
Whale raises to 30 UTG, three callers, I call w/JcTc suited on the BTN and the SB calls.
Flop is AsJdTs, checks to me and I bet 150.
I have played with SB for almost two hours and think he is a pretty bad weak passive player. He has not adjusted well to the maniac whale raising so many hands pre and especially the big pots that have resulted. He calls with about 190 behind.
Three folds to the CO who raises all in for another 250. CO is relatively new to the table, and has played relatively tight and made several comments about how the table is playing "crazy."
I have them both covered. I notice the SB has stacked up his chips to call (and I think it is very unlikely that he is doing so to influence my play based on prior table talk). What do I do? Was my flop bet wrong?
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06-16-2012, 09:12 AM
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#2
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old hand
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,578
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Re: 2-5 Flopped two pair
Although potting it may seem to be protecting your hand given multiple opponents on a wet board, bottom two is just not as strong as it appears here. Raised pot, all broadway, your hand is extremely vulnerable if it isn't already crushed by a better two pair, set, or nut straight. People love to check raise in this spot with said holdings.
And it is important to note that there are NO bare FDs here.
I may check behind here or bet smaller with the intention of folding to a raise unless raiser is short or whale. If you miss value from AQ or AK on the flop, you can bet/fold bricked turn if checked to you again.
Last edited by fatmanonguitar; 06-16-2012 at 09:40 AM.
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06-16-2012, 09:24 AM
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#3
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banned
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,418
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Stack sizes
Villain reads
Hero image
Organize better
Fold
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06-16-2012, 09:54 AM
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#4
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 4,614
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Re: 2-5 Flopped two pair
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ns71nct
Stack sizes
Villain reads
Hero image
Organize better
Fold
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I have 620, SB started with 370, CO started with 430
I don't have any reads on villains beyond those listed in the OP.
I have called with a wider range than normal for me, but average for this table. No bluffs shown yet. I've won a couple of pots when it was folded to me on the turn and called down whale once with third pair for a win. I've folded to flop bets a couple times.
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06-16-2012, 10:18 AM
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#5
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bayou in August
Posts: 63,381
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Re: 2-5 Flopped two pair
Pot odds dictate a call.
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06-16-2012, 10:25 AM
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#6
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 4,614
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Re: 2-5 Flopped two pair
Organized better:
Prehand Descriptions
SB: I have played with SB for almost two hours and think he is a pretty bad weak passive player. He has not adjusted well to the maniac whale raising so many hands pre and especially the big pots that have resulted.
CO: CO is relatively new to the table, and has played relatively tight and made several comments about how the table is playing "crazy."
UTG: maniac, is playing about 90/50, bet $100 UTG pre in the dark
BTN: I have called with a wider range than normal for me, but average for this table. No bluffs shown yet. I've won a couple of pots when it was folded to me on the turn, and C-bet successfully a couple times and called down whale once with third pair for a win. I've folded to flop bets a few times.
I've been friendly w/SB, he is an older guy and we've developed a camaraderie around our incredulity at UTG's play.
$2/5 NL (10 handed)
UTG ($300)
EP ($500)
EP+1($1200)
MP ($2500)
MP+1 ($800)
MP+2 ($400)
CO ($430)
BTN ($620)
SB ($370)
BB ($500)
Hero is dealt JcTc
UTG raises to $30, EP calls $30, MP calls $30, CO calls $30, BTN calls $30, SB calls $30.
I didn't raise here because people have been calling down preflop 3bets light because UTG almost always calls and my hand plays better with a higher STR. We've had a lot of multi-way pots, although this is one of the largest.
Flop ($180) AsJdTs
Everyone checks, I raise to $150, SB calls $150, and CO raises to $400, I ???
I raised here because UTG will call with any pair, and there are a lot of draws/scare cards on this board and most of the table checked after the original raiser checked.
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06-16-2012, 10:45 AM
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#7
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banned
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ikestoys
Pot odds dictate a call.
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What does he beat from the CO
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06-16-2012, 11:09 AM
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#8
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old hand
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,578
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Re: 2-5 Flopped two pair
Based on description, board and action CO has you crushed and often drawing dead. Pot odds only matter relative to hand equity. I insta-muck here.
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06-16-2012, 05:31 PM
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#9
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hijack+4 (prime stealing pos)
Posts: 4,543
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Re: 2-5 Flopped two pair
I like your bet, and I like folding now. CO isn't bluffing with whale in the pot.
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06-16-2012, 05:41 PM
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#10
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 4,614
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Re: 2-5 Flopped two pair
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtagliaf
I like your bet, and I like folding now. CO isn't bluffing with whale in the pot.
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The whale (UTG) had already folded when CO shoved.
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06-16-2012, 05:45 PM
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#11
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hijack+4 (prime stealing pos)
Posts: 4,543
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Re: 2-5 Flopped two pair
sorry I had my villains mixed up. But I still think CO is less likely to be bluffing/semibluffing with a weak passive (SB) still in the hand. The only way I think you're ahead is if villain has JsQs or JsKs, but AJ/AT/JJ/TT/KQ much more likely overall.
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06-17-2012, 09:47 AM
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#12
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 4,614
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Re: 2-5 Flopped two pair
I'm a bit surprised by the focus on the strength of the CO. At the table I was much more concerned with the SB.
Here's my reasoning. First, I don't need much to call here as I am getting better than 5:1 on my money. I also just didn't think the CO was very strong--I mostly thought he was on some kind of draw or pair plus draw. It just doesn't make sense for the CO to be check-raising a set, straight, or 2 pair on such a wet board, and especially after almost everyone has already checked. After all, the SPR is already so low that he'll have no problem getting the money in. If he was that strong, why didn't he lead out?
So I'm mostly concerned with the SB. Flatting my bet here seemed really strong to me. I think this player will flat 2 pair or better hands here, just because he is uncomfortable raising into so many players without the absolute nuts. Will he also flat draws or AK, AQ? In my experience it is unusual for old weak-passive players to be willing to go all in so easily with a draw (remember, he was indicating a call of the shove as well). So maybe some kind of combo draw, but mostly made hands (at least, this was my read).
If I put made hand/combo draw ranges for SB and drawish ranges for CO in Pokerstove, I get between 12 and 17% equity, which would indicate a fold.
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06-17-2012, 07:49 PM
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#13
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old hand
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,578
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Re: 2-5 Flopped two pair
Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position
I'm a bit surprised by the focus on the strength of the CO. At the table I was much more concerned with the SB.
Here's my reasoning. First, I don't need much to call here as I am getting better than 5:1 on my money. I also just didn't think the CO was very strong--I mostly thought he was on some kind of draw or pair plus draw. It just doesn't make sense for the CO to be check-raising a set, straight, or 2 pair on such a wet board, and especially after almost everyone has already checked. After all, the SPR is already so low that he'll have no problem getting the money in. If he was that strong, why didn't he lead out?
So I'm mostly concerned with the SB. Flatting my bet here seemed really strong to me. I think this player will flat 2 pair or better hands here, just because he is uncomfortable raising into so many players without the absolute nuts. Will he also flat draws or AK, AQ? In my experience it is unusual for old weak-passive players to be willing to go all in so easily with a draw (remember, he was indicating a call of the shove as well). So maybe some kind of combo draw, but mostly made hands (at least, this was my read).
If I put made hand/combo draw ranges for SB and drawish ranges for CO in Pokerstove, I get between 12 and 17% equity, which would indicate a fold.
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I don't really get your reasoning. Firstly, you cannot assume your opponents have a frickin clue what SPR is, or that they will not likely c/r strong hands on wet boards. The typical 2+2er utilizes c/r much less often than the avg rec player. Sure the SB may be strong too but, with respect to the CO's perceived strength, you describe him as a tight player who thinks the table is "crazy" and he is clearly not concerned about playing for his stack on a suited broadway board after a pot sized bet and smooth call. How can you not give him credit??
I b/f $100 on this flop, and I easily fold to this raise as played. Bottom two plays like TPTK in this scenario.
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06-18-2012, 12:01 AM
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#14
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grinder
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 475
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Re: 2-5 Flopped two pair
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatmanonguitar
I b/f $100 on this flop, and I easily fold to this raise as played. Bottom two plays like TPTK in this scenario.
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I like this line much better. It allows you to get value from Ax, and bet/fold (mostly) in case you run into AT, AJ, TT, or KQ because you won't be as priced in as you would at $150.
As played, I think its a fold.
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06-18-2012, 01:05 AM
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#15
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grinder
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 473
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Re: 2-5 Flopped two pair
it costs you 250 to win 750.
You have two pair, the board is drawy, CALL. You might be crushed, but they might have top pair plus straight draw, flush draw and straight draw. I can not find a fold here. You also have boat outs against kq.
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