2/5 NL - Horseshoe Hammond

Hero: ($500) New to the table, this is one of my first hands.

Villain 1: ($800) Middle Aged crazy russian guy. He is a regular, and has a very thick accent. Constantly talking about nonsense.

Villain 2: ($800) Old guy, don't have any reads on him other then his is probably a typical old abc type nit.

Preflop: Folds around to V1 in MP who limps, V2 in MP+1 limps, Hero raises to $25 with AJ in Hijack, folds around to V1 and V2 who calls.

Flop: ($80) JT4 V1 checks, V2 checks, Hero bets $50, V1 raises to $150, V2 calls, Hero?

What are you holding?

Do you have the ace of spades?

Sorry, I have AJ

This is pretty easy and the question requires a little more info about V1.

But without any info:
I would assume Villain 1 would bet Jx 10x so I'm not putting him on a pair.

So the question is do you think he would reraise with a draw. For most players I would say no.


My vote goes to fold.

Seems like a fold to me.

You will be getting dangerously close to being stack committed with TPTK...not a hand I like to play for stacks with. Fold.

I'm guessing V1 is on a draw, V2 is in with JT or 44 and is going to shove on a blank turn.

Their ranges for doing this suggest at least one of their hands (esp V2) crushes TPTK.

Even if you call, you'll be guessing that half the deck maybe safe, but expect one big bet (at least) on the turn whatever comes, and we are drawing exceedingly thin against all value hands that play like this.

If "crazy" Russian means he will stack off as the aggressor with second pair or weak draws AND occasional air then you could maybe flat and get it in on safe looking turns if V1 bets and V2 folds, but there are too many variables for that.

Have to fold.

Wow, WTF is going on here???

We have a "crazy" player, a wet board in which ranges are going to be super wide, and we are actually thinking of folding?

I don't know about what your guys' definition of "crazy" is, but my definition of "crazy" involves players spazzing out with ANY draw or TPWK or even mid pair good kicker and gut shots.

Seriously, i'm never folding to a crazy player in this spot. Its just not profitable.

Guys who are advocating folding, please explain to me what in your definition does a crazy player do? What is the difference between a crazy player and a solid player?

This is a super easy peezy snap call with the plan to shove all non-spade and non-broadway turns.

So we want a non spade on turn , something between 2 thru 8 and then we shove turn.

Lastly, ranges are going to be super wide here. If the old player is at all competent and paying attention, then he would know that the crazy player is crazy and thus Jx is the nuts vs the crazy player. Not to mention KQ and FDs are worth calling the flop here.

We really need to know what the OP's definition of "crazy" is. I will make a detailed post about this in the morning.

I agree somewhat with your thinking, my issue is that if we call here, the only card that we're really pretty happy to see is a jack. Even when we peel an offsuit ace for top two, KQ just got there. Potential bad cards are: any 9, (maybe) T, Q, K, A, and any spade. Even a 4,5,6,7, or 8 can make straights or two pairs (for 4s5s/4s6s hands).

And obviously there's a good chance we're already behind. Especially V2, who looks a lot like he could've flopped a set.

With better reads on these players, I might not mind calling, but we have no idea what crazy russian's bets or old man's calls mean. And we're not going to have much of a better idea on the turn.

My vote goes to fold.

If V2 had folded to the raise, I'd be more tempted to call.

V2, typical old guy nit... just cold called 150. F the crazy guy, THAT'S my cue to fold.

Without read on old dude, can't call.

did you miss the part where the only nit cold called a 3 bet? You expect an old abc nit to read a crazy player and call correctly? way too much credit IMO

I mean cmon I'm not saying there is no merit to what you are saying but to say this isnt even close is nutty

I don't remember exactly what was going through my head when I made my first post suggesting fold, which is probably why it had no detail's at all. But, upon review, this is what I think. As a general statement, when you have TPTK in a three way pot on a wet board facing a c/r and a cold call in between with you (as the pre-flop aggressor) still left to act, you are most likely behind or flipping.

Now obviously that isn't always true. It really comes down to how crazy this Russian guy is and whether or not the old dude is adjusting. Since Hero just sat down not too long ago, it doesn't seem like he would really be able to give an accurate account of what had been going on at the table. Especially whether or not the old man was adjusting. If he has played with the Russian guy before then maybe he can give us a better description.

If as you say this Russian guy is absolutely wild and the old man knows this and simply can't fold his A10o, then I agree with your line of though to flat and jam any non spade turn (K and Q are both really bad too). BUT, this is a pretty far stretch.

Now that I think about it, we actually need a more detailed description of the old man too. I mean, obviously the old man flatting the flop with a hand that can beat AJ is pretty bad. You would think that if he had a hand that could beat it he would re-raise the Russian guy. Then again, we don't know anything about this guy other than he is an "old nit". Is he capable of flatting this raise with the nut flush draw? In general, a "nit" would fold in this spot right?

So what does the old nit do with KQ, KQss, KJ, A5ss type hands in this spot? And is OP over using the term "nit" . I hate how that has become the ubiquitious description of all old man coffee types.

I do agree, when the other player cold calls we should be worried. However, there are just too many hands in his range THAT CAN COLD CALL that we are either ahead of or have too much equity to fold here and will move ahead of on all brick turns.

Folding TPTK on boards like this when the probability of a semibluff is super high is just not profitable.

Please give me a range for the "nit" and then show me how that range reduces are equity such that calling is -EV. Otherwise, all you are doing is seeing MUBs because a nit called a raise. Tbh, yes that worries me, but the math is the math and fact is there are too many hands that can be in the nit's range that we beat that can call this raise.

Well first let me say that I agree with you tat the term "nit" when used in reference to an old guy is used far too much around here. That being said, though, unless OP comes back to clarify we have to work with what we have. That means operating under the standard definition of "nit" as far as I'm concerned.

In regards to what an old abc nit does with the hands you mentioned. I could see him folding all but one, but its probably more realistic that he folds 2 and calls 2. Therefore I really think the range you assign him here is way too wide. To think he would ever cold call one pair good kick here is just way too optimistic for me.

Range? Well KQss J10 44 10 10 a5ss maybe KQ, never KJ or any weaker king IMO.

In your inital post, you had this guy making a read in order to call correctly, operating under our standard definition of "ABC nit" this just doesn't happen. Again I just think you are way optimistic here and I think we are wrong more often than we are right here when callimnng

I sigh fold here. We've just been check-raised and then cold called, and it's very likely that we will have to call off the rest of our stack on the turn if we continue.

Even if they are both on big draws (unlikely, I put V1 on a big made hand), we still have many cards to dodge but this smells like J10 or 44 to me.

I don't want to fold given raiser's description, and calling lends to a big guessing game being 3 way.

How about shoving?

I think old guy nit and gambling asian are the two biggest stereotypes here. They're accurate more often than not at lower limits though, so it's easy for unknown asians or older players to be "guilty until proven otherwise".

That being said, I did have an older guy (60s) on my left last weekend and saw him make all sorts of plays. Floating flops, 3betting with air, leading out on blank turns after check/calling flops, bluffing draw heavy boards, etc.

Clearly these players exist, but I don't fault OP for assigning said stereotype to an unknown that hasn't played many hands yet.

I fold and look for a better spot even against QK we have a coin flip not to mention OESFD or an already better hand. Fold immediately.

I sigh, fold, and then "pat myself on the back for being discipline."

I think there are plenty better spots to be in (especially against a crazy player @ the table). Maybe we are ahead, but as stated, there are to many scare cards for me that have me folding a bet on the turn. Even if "the old guy" isn't a Nit....he just cold called a 3 bet and.....he IS old. Feels like a set to me.

Would love to see the results on this one.....it's a common spot w/ the Crazy Russian raising a wet board...but the cold call factor has me w/ an irritated fold.

Cheers

+1

What? Lol... A whole bunch of nits in here... Folding the effective nuts on the flop is a bit nitty in this situation.

V1 range is wide, and omc is not flatting 20 percent of his stack with two pr+...... What does omc do when he has top 2+ and sees so much interest in a wet board? Right. Raise.