H (UTG, 800) raises 25 with AK,
V1 (UTG+1, 750) calls,
V2 (MP, 480) raises to 80,
H calls
V1 calls

Flop (210): A J 6
H checks, V1 donks 110, V2 folds, H raises to 230, V1 calls

Turn (670): 7
H ???

H, V1 and V2 are all TAG nitty winning regs and stay out of each other's way for the most part.

Call the flop bet. Check/raising is a big mistake. Are you raise/calling?

No, you are not.

Do you think V bet/calls and stacks off later with a worse hand?

No, he does not.

I would plan to check/call the flop bet, check/call reasonable turn bets, and give to river shoves.

Check/raise isn't a good idea in this situation to begin with, and your raise isn't nearly enough. It is nearly a minimum raise, if your going to check/raise make it $300. The check/raise on such a dry board looks out of place and even more so after V1 donks.

As played, this depends on what you think V1 calls with on flop. If you think his range is now AJ and sets then check/fold, if you think it's wider then bet around half his stack. Make it look like your setting up a trivial river shove. You will fold out all the single pairs and you might get some folds from two pair and occasionally even 66.

Since they are both tag nits I would probably just fold pf. As played, raising is not good because nitty tags are almost never calling your raise with worse. If you were deeper calling could be fine or maybe even 4! depending on the dynamics. Check, calling and reevaluating is probably your best option but even that is not good since villain is a tag nit. If a tag nit is continuing to bet here they most likely have at least AK+.

Call flop, plan on calling reasonable turn sizing and prolly fold to almost any River action, since I think your 2P out will get you in more trouble of/when you hit.

Your c/r seems to be a "let me find out where I'm at" type with no plan for future streets, try to lay out a plan for any hand b4 you raise/bet/call.

Ps
I don't mind QuadJ plan to try and get him off a chop but thinking that some one will fold bottom set on that board is extremely optimistic, maybe A6 but I doubt that's ever in villains range in a 3/bet pot OOP if he's a "nitty winning tag" and I don't see AJ folding either.

The flop c/r is for value because V1 would probably fold AJ pre and LLSNL villains don't donkbet with flopped sets. So his most likely hand is AQ/AK and we could even get AK off a chop here.

^ if his flop range is really AQ-AK exactly, then it's a good raise of course.

I don't think AK folds a chop.

Also AK is 9 combos AQ is 12. So just go for value.

Bet like 220 on turn shove river for value from AQ.

Pretty easy hand to play if you know his range is AQ-AK.

What else could a nitty TAG have in his range here?

I think the disadvantage in c/c flop is he could possibly take a bet/bet/bet line with AK and get us to fold the same hand OTR as everyone above suggest c/f to river action. OTOH, c/r flop could get us to make him to fold AK instead.

I probably re-raise pre or just fold. I would have called flop, but if you put him on AK or AQ, raising is fine -- but go a little higher. He could have JJ, though. Bet turn.

Do you really expect V1 to donk lead with AQ, AK?

That's bizarre.

Especially with AQ. AQ is almost certainly losing to V's continuing ranges (lots of AK, AJ, AA, JJ). Donking AQ is beyond bizarre. Donk/calling with AQ is even more bizarre. It makes no sense.

Especially from a TAG nitty winning reg.

I think ranging him on AK exactly to get him off a chop is a mistake.

I agree that he may not have AQ but why is this a mistake? Can you think of any other hands in V's range here like ever?

Agree AQ is weird and unlikely.

But why would he donk lead AK, either? To try to target exactly AQ?

That's pretty strange, too. I think it's a pretty weird spot, and I'm not willing to accept that he can't have some better hands as well as worse hands that give you more value on future streets but that might fold to a raise. I also think it's pretty tough to get him off AK, especially after he already donk/called the flop and given pot and stack sizes.

In a 3 bet pot if I had AJ/JJ/66 I would lead it in this situation some of the time. If Hero/V2 has a big AX they are not going away to the first bet, and if they don't they are not likely to c-bet/bluff a 3 way 3 bet pot after the ace hits. Against a nitty player who is likely to check AK/AQ at some point it's all the better to lead so you can try for three streets of value.

Donking in this situation is still odd and what it means is going to vary widely by villain. There are some I would figure for AQ a lot when they donk in this situation. In that case a call/call/lead river line is probably best.

Thinking about it again, I think he can easily donk with AQ to find out where he's at in the hand instead of playing it passively/cluelessly incase the OR came out betting.

And can you construct a range of any worse hands that a nitty TAG reg calls a 3bet pre with? I doubt.

I don't think solid winning TAG regs donk to find out where they're at.

And if he's "finding out where he's at," I don't think he's calling a raise.

It's pretty difficult to range a "nitty TAG winning reg" who flats pre and donk leads on a multi-way 3-bet flop with TP2K to find out where he's at and calls a flop raise.

JJ is obviously possible.

So if it's for value from exactly AQ, I would prolly bet same as flop and shove most rivers...but I think you'll find yourself against a set very often.

I'm still going to disagree with you that he could have AQ here, good "nitty winning tag" will know that AQ is a hand that will get you into trouble on A high boards OOP in 3/bet pots.
So if you think he could have AQ here can you please explain why he can't have AJs as well?

I agree with your rhetorical question.

Optimal preflop strategy (4bet or fold versus calling OOP) depends heavily on 3bettor's tendencies.

Can OP answer what the 3bettor's preflop tendencies are? What is his likely 3bet range? Is it POLARIZED or MERGED?

Can OP answer what the 3bettor's postflop tendencies are? Is he likely to cbet bluff/double barrel bluff? How does he play TPGK/small overpairs if he has the initiative? Etc. Etc.

Cliff Notes: While I think that 4bet or fold is often a good decision with AK in this spot, we don't have enough information to know whether 4bet or fold is better than calling OOP here.

ATsai, a question for you.

why does his range have to be polarised or merged? Why can't it jsut be nutted, as a third option?

Just so that I am clear on the terminology, I think that nutted means something like KK+ AK etc, polarized means nutted + SC type stuff, and merged includes SC, nutted and mid-strength hands like TT, JJ etc. Is that correct?

Why would you play differently against polarised and merged ranges in this spot? If you think he is nutted, you would fold. But I can't think why I wuld play differently vs polarised and merged. Are you suggesting we should raise against the merged range to push him off the middle-type stuff like JJ, TT, but raising v polarised folds worse and gets calls/shoves from better?

thanks

I think JJ going for three streets of value by donking, instead of giving the 3better a chance to check his AK or AQ somewhere along the line, makes more sense than AQ or AK.

Unless V2 is a complete nit and only 3 betting KK+....I'm 4 betting this pre to $220...all-in on all flops considering he has less than 100BB. Easy game or maybe I'm just simple minded....V1 most likely folds out pre. I don't want to be playing this hand OOP against 2 opponents (no offense, but since you didn't put up a description of V's, I'm assuming you don't have a huge skill advantage on V's so I would keep the hand simple and just go straight for the simplest plays when OOP).

On a side note: If you flat V's 3 bet without anticipating V1 coming along....how much value do you really expect to get if an Ace falls on the flop heads up and you're OOP?? Maybe one bet from V but that's it. Also added negative, you allowed V1 a good price to call with any 2 now and you're in the current situation you posted.

pf: if the 3bettor is a nit, and his range is QQ+ or KK+ (w/oAK), fold. If he is polarized (and wouldn't really be a nit if he was) 4bet.

flop: I am only raising if I feel good about calling him off otf. Otherwise, just call. We have TPTK no need to get all of our money in so fast.

You say V is tag and nitty so I'd probably just fold here. His range is probably something like AK and QQ+ so not much point in calling this. Also you're out of position which sucks and if this is the first time you've seen V 3bet then this fold becomes even easier. AK looks like a pretty hand and it sucks folding it when there is a chance you're up against something you're dominating, but folding to the 3bet just sounds right to me.

How long have you been playing with the villains and do you have any history prior to this session with either of them?

What is MP's 3 betting range in that spot? With just the information you gave, I would guess a nitty reg who 3 bets an EP raise and flat to have QQ+ and maybe AK, making this a painful fold, especially being OOP. If you think he has JJ or even worse hands in his range and folds worse than KK+ to a four bet, then a four bet assuming you don't have a terrible image would be best.

Once you get to the flop though, how are you ranging UTG+1? Will he correctly call with 66 to set mine here or is he too nitty for that? Does he often slow play big hands? Does he only donk medium strength hands? If you've been playing for a few hours, you should have an idea to some of these questions.

On the flop, just with the information you have I think could narrow the average nitty regular's range to solely AK and AQ. If that's the case the minraise is great, but without further reads I would check call flop and most turns, and probably check fold river, expecting a check back most of the time from AQ and AK.

So if we assume that V2 folds everything worse than KK+ to a 4bet, are you 4bet/folding pre with these stacks? What if he just calls your 4bet?