Click it back to 520 and cram all turns.

Reads and ranges were constructed in this op such that nothing but calling really makes sense. Open villain's range a bit and give him half a fold button and other lines can be considered.

I sort of doubt v is as narrow as op indicates or the description doesn't really fit (I expect a TAG to at least have AK in his 3! Range for example). No prior hand histories were given, no observation of villain post flop tendencies. A read of older guy in casino apparel who has AA or KK and will never fold sitting on 300 bb+ making 1/2 to 3/4 pot bets.

I also doubt he was auto stacking off heart rivers "100%".

There really was never anything worthy of discussion here if the read wasn't up for discussion. Seems the thread was simply a justification for calling off decent chunk of our stack with a very pretty looking draw.

Grunch- call this deep and in pos

I think the turn is a fold. We didn't pick up any extra equity, and there is no way that V is going to fold if we bomb the turn. The 3c is just a terrible card. I also highly doubt that V is going to stack off on the river if a diamond hits. The obvious draw hits and this guy punts off his stack? Me thinks not.

If V is as bad as you claim he is, then go ahead and call. Since you didn't provide any HHs to prove it, I'm not convinced.

What PFunkaliscious said.

i dont think anybody knows what click it back means

If he really only has KK here then I would fold preflop to his 3 bet. Whats the point of calling? Is he going to pay you off big time if an ace flops? I doubt it.

He meant tripple click back ldo.

His range did not become KK+ until after he makes an out of character CB otf.

Calling villain a TAG might have been my first mistake and a bit misleading. Guy is fit/fold, calling a decent amount in MW pots maybe too much. I believe I was calling him a TAG because in terms of preflight aggression he was only 3! me preflop with JJ+ AK at the most. The purpose of this thread for me was to find out if ott, knowing he has AA/KK and won't fold is calling flop/turn viable. Even then, it seems pretty popular the thought that I'm never getting all the money in on H turn or river. While I do still disagree, if that it could be the case I suppose folding ott may have been better. Villain also asked me after the hand was over if I had KK. Later on in the session villain ended up calling off large portions of his stack to another deep stack in spots where he was clearly way behind but was reluctant to fold TP type hands.

3! Otf seems interesting but to me seemed bad because I felt I had 0 fe and I guess I could 4! Pre as wel but the thought of 4! Never crossed my mind. What does everyone think about a small 4! Pre?

Op if you haven't read it, check out the thread in the stikies titled "what are you implying" by Bip!

i would be shocked if he folded aa to a river shove on a heart

Agreed. Can't tell if 2p2 sarcasm or actual opinion but I guess I'll take it either way.

I've read it once or twice but it sounds like I should probably read it again.

Thanks

of course im serious
hes gonna look at the money in the middle and then look at his hand and call. then complain about how unlucky he is

Ha, alright. Yes I agree 100% but it seemed like a lot of posters did not although I'm not sure why. I guess the TAG misrepresentation I gave him maybe? I'm still not sure if it was misrepresented but I can't imagine why many feel that way.

Also commando thanks for the bip post reference. While I have read it before I have clearly not applied it properly in terms of his formula. I just did my own rough calculations in my head and his are much more accurate. Based on his formula I think my call ott becomes even better because his formula used resultant pot which would've included an extra +300 in the over all total. Really reinforces my belief that as played it was fine. While I do think the line I took was weak/not terrible I'm not so sure a 4! Pre, raise flop, or more aggressive line was viable here.

Thanks for all the responses

Like cAmmAndo wrought out, if V turned his range over at KK+, then fold>raise>call and there really isn't much more to it.

100% call your whole range IP deep vs this guy. There will be a lot more hands on a lot of other flops vs his range that you can call flops IP that do better EV wise against his strong-narrow range as calls because of IO... And that's the irony of the AKhh hand. While we can only estimate the IO, an OLD V is going to be hyper-aware when you call and the flush hits and stack off much less often (IMO) then when you have 79cc on the same flop and you Bink 6 of your cleaner 8 outs and get his whole stack (where he'll more often just do the "you flop a set" routine and still hand you the rest). AKhh and 79cc have near identical equity against KK+, but the IO make 79 a feasible call while the AKhh toes the line between fold/raise to gii.

So, when you cal AK and miss, unless V is ck turns enough or betting .3pot enough, you're going to be getting the same 3-1ish odds in a turn call, again, with quickly diminishing IO. When facing a large bet, it's a clear fold so often that calling flop is brutally bad. Granted if you just have V stacking off always forever this deep, then there could be enough behind otr to bring a call flop/call turn into +EV territory, but that's not realistic.

Beating this all to death, you shouldn't narrow his range as others have said otf, except to eliminate AK bluffs... He should pretty regularly be betting TT+ here without any problems, against that reasonable range, you're flipping on a raise-shove and FE is in play given my earlier post.

Ok so I might have missed it but what we basically disagree about his narrowness of V's range, the FE that goes along with it and the "hyper awareness" you are sayin villain has. So if villains range is wider ( TT-AA) and we have as much fe as you say we do, how are you sizing your raise otf? On a brick turn like a 3c, if he just calls our flop raise, then checks the turn, are you betting and if so how much are you betting ott? Also, because of the hyper awareness of V does that mean you turn a large portion of your range into bluffs on h turns since villain is likely to fold?

Flop: I don't think V is folding an OP to a flop raise like ever on that board, because you rep very little that beats him. So I call with the intention of semi-bluffing Q-8 turns.

Turn: Yuck, gross card and without a read that V is capable of b/f after investing over $500 in this spot, I'm probably just letting it go. However, I recollect Bart saying this is a call OTT if you're 100% sure he's sticking in his last $$$ on a heart river.

What if the river is an A though and he shoves?


Results?

Results were posted earlier in the thread. If he shoves an A river I probably fold.

He bet 300 ott I called river bricked he shoved I folded and he asked me if I had Kk

^ So he probably had AA.

Do you think he folds if you had raised flop?

I think there is a 0% chance this guy is folding turn a raise otf of any size. But several people itt clearly feel differently. Still waiting on a response from Amanaplan. Many people itt are telling me that I shouldn't be narrowing villains range so much but this seems pretty straightforward to me. I suppose its easy for me to say since I was there but It seem odd to see people being so sure I am wrong w/o being there. I understand this is a pretty douche cliche thing to say because everyone is just going to say why post if you are only doing so to prove yourself right. In that respect villains range seemed face up based on his sizing.