UTG $400 - plays pretty tight but not a very good player. Standard rec player. Will limp a decent amount but has a somewhat tight opening range

Hero $1.4k - MP pretty solid image

BTN $700 - loose gambly Asian guy.

BB - $700 - solid player


UTG opens to $20.
Hero MP calls
BTN call
BB call

Flop ($80) T82r
UTG bets $60
Hero calls (???........)
BTN call
BB fold

Turn ($260) J (completes rainbow)
UTG thinks a bit and checks
Hero bets $150
BTN raises to $400 leaving $200 behind
UTG folds
Hero?

How bad is flatting flop on a pretty dry board?
As played, is bet/call it off fine?
How deep does BTN have to be for us to be looking at b/f turn?

Thanks

Its fine in position to flat with top set here and trap. I like it, gives all his overpairs zero chance to make a herofold if we raise the flop, or if he C bets with unpaired overcards he is drawing almost dead and he gets a chance to catch up.

I guess villain oversetted you with JJ on the turn since this thread excist, but its resultoriented thinking to base your flop decision on that. He would need to be alot deeper to even be thinking about bet folding this turn+ we would need to have a very solid read on his tendencies when it comes to betting patterns/sizings in these situations to make a meaningful correct decision.

I like a flop raise in that spot. I'm going after UTG's stack, and if I've oversetted anyone I want to get the money in now rather than wait until the turn and question whether my hand is best. Also don't want big cards to scare away UTG overpairs. Given only V description of "loose gambly Asian", I feel like you've gotta go with it on the turn. That being said, if you think 97 is a big part of your range after turn bet and V is a decent hand reader/unlikely to get the money in with worse, then occasionally I might find a nit fold here.

UTG started with 400$, under 100 BBs. I cant see how we are ever folding flopped top set on this turn with these stacksizes?I mean thats never happenning, even though we can talk about a hero fold and that kind of stuff in theory.

I dont hate raising the flop either, but i feel like we can easily use our position here to widen our own range with just a call to make villain feel good about his hand, then come turn villain will fire again and in practice potcommit himself with a large turnbet.

Dream scenario is that we have two others behind us to act after we call UTGs C-bet, so we can get into a legendary spot if one of those two is getting cute with a spazz raise of somekind, or if they have smaller set and raise- then UTG is sandwiched in between with a big overpair before we can just get our money in with the stones. Getting a boner just imagining that scenario lol.

Why are we raising flop when we double block tp?

I dunno, I don't really like the flat here. It unbalances our raise range on this board to be too heavy with bluffs/semibluffs AND we have a "gambly" player yet to act behind us. If we want to put his or the BB's stack in play, we will generally need a raise or an overbet at some point. I think I toss at least a hundred on top.

On this particular turn, I think we are mostly committed against this V. Would need a much more in depth read to fold.

I didnt argue to raise the flop, but the poster who did infact argue a flop raise explained in hist post some of the reasons why he wants to raise.

Did you read the post or jumped past it?

I like flatting the flop. I like leading the turn. Given V's description, I mainly see gambly Asian guys pump pots only when strong. Given that he could have 2p, maybe delaying a raise with a previous set, we shouldn't be too worried about the straights, though he does have those a majority of the time here. We still have to call. We have ~50% equity vs a range of straights, sets, & 2p. Less if we weigh more to straights/JJ, but still enough for us to suck out if need be.

Most importantly, I think the deeper V is, the more likely we should be to call because our implied odds increase for when we boat up OTR.

EDIT: After reading other responses and reconsidering, maybe raising the flop > flatting.

UTG being short and cbetting 3/4 pot is exactly why I want to raise flop. I feel like we can get UTG to commit now fairly frequently. And I really don't want to be up against a 22 or 88 that also think it's a good idea to slowplay - I've seen these spots happen far too many times where top set lost a ton of value in an overset spot by playing too slowly. Also, any 6, 7, 9, J, Q puts a straight on the board that is reasonable for our flop calling range and our villains' calling ranges. Ace and king turns also kinda suck since JJ-QQ is a decent part of UTG's range. I think hoping UTG turns a pair and stacks off then is much more optimistic than hoping UTG already has an overpair and wants to stack off now.

We're playing for $700/140BBs (button), our hand looks a lot like we turned the obvious straight, and we block TJ. It would be a rare set of circumstances to fold on the turn, but I think I could against certain players. (Folding might seem especially bad cuz we're getting correct odds with a call and IO for river pair shove, but obviously we're never calling turn and folding river so this is kind of a "fake" implied odds situation).

Yeah sorry my bad, pocketzeroes- i messed up the turn action and mixed up who was raising us.

Agree its another ballpark for sure when its not preflopraiser who raises us, but the button behind us.

And also valid points about possibly losing value if we are indeed lucky enough to be up against a lower set, even though i think this happens so infrequently that its hardly a good argument to plan our hand with that unlikely scenario in mind.

can people also comment on turn? I think always betting turn is fine when checked to.

Bet size ok?
Jam over his raise?
How much deeper should we be where we can think about a fold on turn?

In general don't most people sets or 2p+ on the flop? JT makes some sense but obviously very unlikely


I also think flop raise prob > flat here

Bet size is fine.

Y'all are committed, jam or no jam is fine.

As someone else mentioned, the deeper we are, the more we can just call for implieds.

EDIT: Oh, and as played, we must bet the turn.

Betsize seems okay to me, we still want value from alot of inferior hands that is drawing extremely thin against us, so i dont see many reasons to go too big.

Yeah i mean, he left himself with 200$, so if i am going with the hand just ship all in. No reason to flat and get a possible scarecard of somekind come off on the river and make him save 200$ in some rare circumstances, or if he have a hand where he turned drawing equity we dont want to give him the chance to make his hand without comitting his whole stack.

How deep we need to be before thinking about folding depends alot on the villain and the amount of good reads/profiling we have on the guy. But i guess when were playing for 200 BB stacks or more it for sure starts to arise as a serious question wich line we take or if were going with it or not.

Yeah prob just a basic math problem to figure out at what genera point, stack wise, I can profitably just call

I think that when we flop the nuts... Especially a hand like TT on T82r... We in fact should plan for the unlikely cooler scenarios where we get to get stacks in with a huge equity advantage. Yeah there's value to be had against straight draws, but especially when we don't have position in the hand (button straight draws will have good IO against us), it's really not a huge amount of value. And we can't expect to get a ton of value against Tx simply because we've removed two of them.... So if we're going to get value with this hand, I think our target ranges should be UTG's overpairs and the other players' flopped sets.

@pocketzeroes - you're basically saying that the value we get when we flat and keep straight draws in the hand will be pretty negligible when we consider the massive ROI when these guys bink their straight draws - especially deep when we can't fold our sets?

Kind of...

I'm saying that the value we get against straight draws is negligible compared to the value we get against hands that flopped well (overpairs and sets).

Straight draws = high frequency X low value
Undersets = low frequency X very high value

I think that in the long run the value from undersets (even if it's a rare occurrence) dominates straight draws so it's better to just target them now.

This isn't to say I think it's always wrong to slowplay top set. For example, KK on a K72r board, I'll often be hoping 7x hits two pair or that by checking it, that some other PP will turn a set.

But in the case of this hand (which is somewhat more vulnerable and crushes the deck a lot less than KK on K72r), with UTG showing strength both pre and post, I just want to shovel money in now.

I like the jam on the turn. If he has something like QQ or KK and ace comes on the river, he could fold it. If he had JJ, all I'd say is, "nice hand, sir."

I like flatting on the flop. We want V2 in there as well.

Turn - I muck it here. We are repping 97, and V2 comes over the top of us. He range is 95% straights here.

We are not even close to getting the right price.

What are you talking about? You are ranging the wrong V.

I am not so sure about that. Its 260$ in the pot on the turn, and 410$ after we put in our 150$ bet. Even if we range button incredibly tight here of just lower sets or straights (he also probably raises J10 for top two and som other funky stuff that gambooly asians can do from time to time), it cant be a large mistake or a mistake at all to get it in with these stacks behind.

Whether I flat or raise the flop depends on what type of player the preflop raiser is. If he is a good thinking player then on this dry flop I would just flat his flop bet and then hope the spazz behind us goes crazy. If we raise the flop against a good player then I think he can pretty easily put us on sets only as it's unlikely we have T8, T2, or 82 and there are pretty much no hands we could semi bluff with except for maybe QJ that has 2 overs and a gutshot. Now if there was a flush draw on the flop then I'd raise as there's 3 players in the pot so there's a decent chance one of them may have a flush and I want to charge that draw.

If the preflop raiser is someone that I don't recognize or a player that is bad and can't fold overpairs then I'd raise the flop to an amount that I could get stacks in on the turn. You describe the preflop raiser as a bad rec player so against this player I'd raise the flop to $160. This makes it easy for him to call as he just has to throw in a single black chip. If everyone else folds and the PFR calls then the pot will be $400 with only $220 left so we can bet 55% of pot on the turn and get all the money in. Also, against this type of player, I want to raise the flop as I don't want a hand like JJ or QQ to get away on the turn if an A or K comes.

we are repping 97 here. he is not coming over the top of us with anything less than a straight.

So, we have to call 250 to win 1450. which is a profitable price for these stack sizes. So, yes, calling is the right play. But then are we folding on the river if we don't boat? We will be getting 6:1

Lol okay, since you say so.

We are not "repping" one particular hand, we can have several hands in this spot like J10 for top two as an example off the bat. Its not about what you feel we "are repping" (freaking online words that is not very relevant at LLSNL), its about how we range our villains and if we get the right price to stackoff with our set.

And also, its crazy without further information/reads on villain to be so sure thats gambooly asians raising range is only straights here.

Do we ever consider 3 betting this hand pre? If not, are we playing this as more of a "set mining" situation where we X/F most flops if any overs come? Or is our hand strong enough that we can call at least 1 street if the flop comes like K82ss? Assuming we have little reads (say we just sat down at the table).