Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
100 NL, weak top pair on wet flop, facing check-raise overbet shove. 100 NL, weak top pair on wet flop, facing check-raise overbet shove.

10-25-2016 , 12:51 AM
$1/$2 NL full ring. Most players have between 100 and 200BB. Effective stack size for hand $190.

Villain straddles for $4.

Fold to hero in CO with A 9

Hero raises to $15. Button, SB and BB fold.

Villain calls $15. Pot now $33

Flop comes A K J

Villain checks, Hero bets $20, villain check-raises all-in for $150 with a loud, theatric "bet everything", grabbing two handfuls of her chips and slamming them down on the action line.

Hero now faces $130 to call into $203 pot.

Reads on villain:

* She's capable of playing big hands with aggressive overbets. A lap ago, a weak loose player limped on the button on her BB for $2, she jammed $35 in preflop, got called, and wound up busting by check-calling the flop and jamming the turn with AK on a 4-T-J-K board by the turn and running into AQ.

* She's capable of slow playing monster hands. A few hands after this one, she called a raise in position with a small pair, flopped bottom set, and just called the flop before shoving the turn -- and running into top set.

* This outburst of hers was the absolute first time I had seen her, in about half an hour or so, bet or raise with anything but deliberate motions. It's also the first time she vocalized her bet; her all-ins prior were just silent.

* I don't think she was particularly attentive to my image, which would be TAG mostly with slight attempts to mix things up.

I'll post my thoughts later on how I read the situation but I welcome people's feedback.
100 NL, weak top pair on wet flop, facing check-raise overbet shove. Quote
10-25-2016 , 01:52 AM
Pretty easy fold
100 NL, weak top pair on wet flop, facing check-raise overbet shove. Quote
10-25-2016 , 01:57 AM
snap fold
100 NL, weak top pair on wet flop, facing check-raise overbet shove. Quote
10-25-2016 , 02:53 AM
Fold, even the semi bluffs have a huge amount of equity. You are crushing close to 0 hands that c/rip this board.
100 NL, weak top pair on wet flop, facing check-raise overbet shove. Quote
10-25-2016 , 06:44 AM
Chuckle, look at your cards, turn the A around, throw in your hand, say "Ace-Queen of hearts is good", hope she shows, check the flop next time.
100 NL, weak top pair on wet flop, facing check-raise overbet shove. Quote
10-25-2016 , 02:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KSwift
Chuckle, look at your cards, turn the A around, throw in your hand, say "Ace-Queen of hearts is good", hope she shows, check the flop next time.
I'm curious about the rational for not betting, as there are a lot of her hands that I'd want to charge to see the turn that she'd call with -- hearts, KQ/KT/QJ/JT and so forth; to say nothing about the Qx and Tx hands I'd like to get rid of.
100 NL, weak top pair on wet flop, facing check-raise overbet shove. Quote
10-25-2016 , 03:52 PM
Easy fold. Flop check wouldn't be bad, but bet's good too.

KSwift, I feel like you're consistently giving poor advice having not played a lot. I heavily discourage showing cards in order to make a person feel bad and also make them play better. Neither are admirable objectives.

Just because she jammed doesn't mean flop bet is bad either, though again, I think it's a reasonable option. We want to check more if we think villain is aggro, but there are lots of hands that call against us we can get value from by betting.
100 NL, weak top pair on wet flop, facing check-raise overbet shove. Quote
10-26-2016 , 04:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Reader
Easy fold. Flop check wouldn't be bad, but bet's good too.

KSwift, I feel like you're consistently giving poor advice having not played a lot. I heavily discourage showing cards in order to make a person feel bad and also make them play better. Neither are admirable objectives.

Just because she jammed doesn't mean flop bet is bad either, though again, I think it's a reasonable option. We want to check more if we think villain is aggro, but there are lots of hands that call against us we can get value from by betting.
Flashing a card and needling aren't part of my toolkit. I play TAGgish enough that a lot of my value is recreational players calling me even if they are sure "I got it, like always". Furthermore, I think showing that I'm capable of being blasted off of top pair when I raise is a recipe for disaster, it would be like waving a red flag in front of the other aggressive players at the table -- for all they know, I'm thinking about a call with 2nd/3rd pair + gutshot or something marginal.

I will say that I folded, so I feel confident in that. I talked to one of the dealers who has known her and seen her play a lot more than I have, and they were quite convinced I made the right lay down.

My thought process was basically as such:

* eliminate AA, KK, JJ and AK from her range, since those would almost certainly have gotten a shove preflop
* Have her range at flush draw at bottom, bottom two pair at top.
* I need to win 40% to break even
* Most flush draw hands are a little better than 40% equity (actually behind AX of hearts, 50/50 with Qx / Tx, 60%+ against others)
* I'm down 3:1 to bottom two and crushed by anything better.

When in doubt, I compared "what am I way up on" (basically, nothing) versus "what's crushing me" (lots) so if a fold IS a mistake, it ain't much of one.

Question: If I check the flop (as some are recommending against a competent opponent capable of aggression), what is the purpose? Pot control, and potentially bluff-catch turn and maybe river? Surely not check-fold the turn unless a super scare card comes?
100 NL, weak top pair on wet flop, facing check-raise overbet shove. Quote
10-26-2016 , 05:05 PM
I'm folding here quickly.

I agree with you C-bet is good here. A lot of worse hands call a c-bet
100 NL, weak top pair on wet flop, facing check-raise overbet shove. Quote

      
m