Loose passive table. Raises of $10-13 would get called 3 or 4 ways, raises to $15 would get called by 1 or 2 players max. $250 effective stacks (V and H are pretty close)

V (MP1) raises to $15, folds to hero with 10d10s (btn)....


I'm wondering how many players call vs how many 3 bet. For those that 3 bet, how much? No real read on V. Hasn't been at table maybe 15 mins with only one showdown. (9 high flush from BB beat limped 8 high flush)

Against a relative unknown, and with us having position, I'm gonna flat and play poker.

TT scrapes the bottom or of my "standard 3-bet for value" range. Or maybe it's just below it. I only really 3-bet this against maniacs and LAGs when I'm IP. Since 3-bets get called so much by KJs and the like at this level it plays a little weird post-flop.

I default to flatting it, assuming players are passive and are raising with a really strong range. The problem is, if they are tight-bad, they are folding everything we beat but continuing with better, and if they are loose-bad, they often have two overs. This is much less of a problem with JJ, hence why the "high PP/mid PP" divide happens at TT for me. Perhaps better post-flop players will find that this happens at TT/99 for them.

The good news for 3-betting is we don't have a bunch of players to act behind us. If we 3-bet from utg+1, we are more likely to get screwed by a random JJ+ showing up behind us. With all those players folded out we have less to worry about.

But: being on the button and at the tippy-top of our flatting range makes this a really enjoyable spot, whether the pot goes heads up or multiway. If it goes heads up I'm happily floating a cbet on most boards. If it goes multiway I'm comfortably betting when checked to as well.

Players will play either above or below average in 3-bet pots, which could influence whether we 3-bet or not. But even good players will often be lost without knowing their villains' tendencies.

Overall, I think this spot is optional. 3-betting and flatting may be pretty close in EV. I think I flat TT just because...I find it more stressful to 3-bet it! :P This is the sort of spot where we can make up a rule like: "black TT we 3-bet and any other TT we call."

I feel like I'm either behind or even money with anything that calls a three bet here. So, I prefer a flat.

My plan is to call a c-bet on most flops, or bet it checked to OTF.

Evaluate from there.

This is a flat unless you have a reason not to. And you don't.

flat for sure. only 3bet here if you want to play for stacks versus this villain

1010 is def not part of my "standard" 3 bet range. But I def get/agree with what you're saying here. Thanks


@turtle, I'm always thinking about how am I going to get V's stack. As soon as I sit down, I begin to profile Villians. The things I pick up the quickest are bet sizing and general play. (Tag, Lag, Loose passive, and so on.)


I'll fill in the rest of the hand and my thinking behind it after a few more responses, Thanks

great, so what would be some of your reasons NOT to just flat?

you've misunderstood. what i'm saying is, you only want to 3bet here if you're comfortable playing for villains stack right here right now with this hand, i.e. he 4bets and you shove

and since you have no reads on villain and/or history, and hes opening from fairly early position, its not likely you'd want to do that

when I 3 bet this(villain dependent)
its a raise/fold to 35-40. has to be small enough to not fold out the hands you are crushing(22-99)

Don't you ever 3-bet fold? I think this is a very powerful tool to use if you have the right image since any 4 bets/shove are 99% KK or AA. Like ohmyrage said, you just have to be more precise in your sizing.

Yes, but why would you choose this hand which has value to pull a 3-bet bluff/fold? If you're opponents are only 4 betting AA and Kk, You can pick any 2 cards and essentially do the same. Using Ax for example would be much more effective because of the a blocker.

Flat and play post flop...3 betting is fine against certain villains, when you are deeper.
Given stack sizes and no read on villain, just flat it.

Flat and play in position.

With no reads, I doubt its more EV to 3-bet than flat vs typical LLSNL villain.

I get what you're saying. My counter to that would be if we know that Vs are only 4 bet/pushing with KK or AA and flatting a narrow range below that, I can (using my image as pretty nutted aggro bettor) C-bet almost ALL flops with A or K in them, getting QQ, and JJ to fold.

I think most Vs SHOULD give me credit for big PP every time I 3 bet because, for most players, they'll only 3 or 4 bet with AA or KK. I can also reinforce my image as only 3 betting with KK or AA by showing the 1st and or 2nd time I get KK+ and 3 bet. This allows me to 3 bet 1010 (sometimes) and JJ, QQ and even AK more often.

I completely understand that this is 100% Villain and table dependent.

again... if your purpose is to get villain to fold QQ or JJ or whatever, why do you need TT, a value hand, to do it?

this is very illogical. you're saying you'll show KK+ when you 3bet so that people will give you credit for a big PP every time.. then you say it allows you to 3bet value hands like 1010+ and AK more often. ????? would not the point of showing your KK+ (a pretty bad idea imo but thats another discussion) to be to allow you to 3bet bluff?

I need to add that Balancing your range at lower limits like 1/2 is typically not necessary. a lot of times what happens is you could end up leveling/outplaying yourself by giving Vs a little too much credit

TL;DR bet and raise your value hands, call down hands with showdown value, and bluff air hands, profit

I'll just post the rest of the hand.

So, action folds to hero on the btn with 1010. I 3-bet to $50 BECAUSE I believed I had a very solid image and V. should give me the respect of the 3-bet if he decided to raise with with KQ or AJ or something like that. Folds to V who tanks (if you call 15 seconds tanking lol) and says " well, I have to go all in then" Hero tanks and hollywoods for almost a minute trying to make this look like a tough decision. After folding and saying show the Aces, (which V does) I proudly say HOLY COW, I've never had to fold QQ before, but what else could you have there. lol (I would like to thank the academy)

I thank those who remind me that I have no real read on V. I believe that was my major mistake here. ( I didn't think about that at the time, I just lumped the newest player right in with the other players that were there the previous 3 hrs) If I had waited another 30-45, minutes, I caught a HUGE preflop bet sizing tell on this V. and would have happily called in position to set mine, also knowing he was not folding an over pair to most boards. So thanks for the comments, and GL.

God, sometimes I am a complete dumbass. So, thanks for pointing out my stupidity. I really don't think about balancing my range at all. By nature, I'm only about a half step above a nit, trying to look for ways to loosen up my game via position and playing some hands in a more aggro way than the other players expect me to. thanks

nah, only way to learn and improve. just remember to explore every action you do and ask yourself why you're doing it. i find that a lot of players get stuck and a big leak is their inability to be open minded

nothing wrong with that at all, just remember though that most of your profit from these games come from value. there are plenty of spots to be aggressive when you have no showdown value and have fold equity to keep you afloat in the meantime.

You need reads. And a reason to 3 bet in this spot. Using your image in 1/2 game will backfire. Example. I opened to $15 utg (same game your playing) Utg +1 raised to $200. He is tightest player at table. Have never seen him 3 bet. Only opens AA, KK. He got cold called.

Anyhow. I love the 3 bet for value. Vs about 1/2 the player pool.

Sizing is good. As your getting called by worse (and better). Obviously we are 3 bet folding (well done). Would be careful cbetting "A" high boards. As our villains calling range is heavely weighted to pairs and Aces.

Just because we 3bet (which will show an immediate profit). Doesn't mean we have to stack off. Or even put any more money in pot.

Be careful with the aggresion. As 1010 has alot of value flatting. And pick your 3 bet spots.

If the blinds are always coming along if you flat, then 3 betting gives you a decent chance to play heads up in position. Playing it 4 way sucks when a couple of Broadway cards hit the flop.

Of course that is an argument for 3betting atc if villain is fit or fold.

let's say you flat and board comes something like 952r and villain proceeds to barrel and turn does not bring any scare cards and villain barrels again, at what point are you thinking villain may have an overpair/set?

Fold. You have no read on your opponent so post flop will be guessing what's going on if you don't flop a set. Blinds could three bet and it's a massive open. Your only read is a very general loose passive table, which again, doesn't bode well for your hand.

If it goes 4 ways. With 2 Broadway cards. This would be easiest fold ever.