^ thanks GG, appreciate it.

GG and I have wildly different styles and approaches to poker. I find the short stack approach you use to only be good sub 70bb (personally) I also find it to quickly get both RIO when deeper and highly variant always. I used to play shortstack poker, buy in for 40-50bb, etc. be super disciplined pre, seat select to limp-re-raise and try to get most my money in pre whenever I had like JJ+ and AK. Further this was back in 06-07 when games were WAY juicer. I still got my ass handed to me due to: bad postflop play + variance.

I found the choices as follows:
1) get up after doubling up, take a walk, get back into the game afterwards with 50bb so you are always shortstacked. This is boring as hell, and makes you bad for the game. I do not condone this approach. Further, it does not help you get better at poker and is inflexible.
2) Learn to play better in deeper postflop poker with less clear/simple positions.

ABC players are easy enough to read, but there are plenty of players others view as non-ABC players, whom I find quite predictable later in hands (can range well based on pre/flop/turn action).

Complicated positions cut both ways. If we ourselves are unpredictable, and our image in the eyes of our opponents is understood, we can cause opponents to make very bad decisions in more complicated situations.

I find myself repeatedly telling posters to stop posting coolers and start posting marginal hands. For anyone who has a more 'actiony' style winrate is massively affected by dead pots picked up from c-betting/barreling/semi-bluffing/bluff-raising (action = VPIP >15 + w/rate not based solely on disciplined folding and cold decking). Win-rate can also be juiced by light call downs in polarized situations weighted towards weaker hands.

For my personal style big raises are severely -EV. I find they cause lots of opponents to play better (by folding pre and not having the chance to fuq up a flop). Yes it means plenty of spots where I back-call with TT-KK, see an awful flop multiway and fold to action. Yes it means I can and do level myself into losing hands vs more than one pair or calling with second pair in weird spots. However, it also means that I have many, many, many hands with an overpair on a T or J high board where a player is pounding TPGK into his full-stack 110bb doom. Also most players get super sticky with top/second pair as my usual aggression picks up in a spot where most aggro players bluff (key to this working for me is that even if unknown after a few hours at a table, I'm known as aggressive/bluffy).

My goal is a game with maximal complicated post-flop situations preferably deeper, preferably multiway. These are situations that are easier to screw up, harder to master (if they can be mastered) and fun/creative to play. This cuts both ways, though. Whats hard for you is hard for your villains, and my solid TAG friends with similar winrates would sometimes laugh at me ("You never know where you are because you play like a nut-job and can't tell if they're making a move because its you or if they have it") but they agreed that my style is generally great for the game.

I am nowhere near the world's best--I do run into problem facing the top-game studs who can adjust properly to my bag of bullcrap with very limited sample size.

Some things that helped me along:
In the middle of my learning curve this thread came out:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...2-5-nl-369739/
My A game is type 2 SDC or change-up to total rock (VPIP12ish) if game demands it (i way prefer being a constant limper). Now since the kablooey thread, the games have changed. But the general concepts still remain (they less profitable and require more judicious application). And while I am/was not the biggest midstakes crusher, I was quite profitable on a few thousand NL hours of sample including regular death-run in big hands (I suxxx at PLO and donated plenty of $$ there).
May I also recommend you read:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/27...-easy-1021276/

@ Maskk

I'm not so sure our ways of thinking are *that* far off.

My table can still be *very* loose, so taking a shortstack approach to a 100bb game (by simply raising 10xbb+ preflop) is still a valid approach a lot of the time (table dependent of course).

And of course there will be times that stacks / table don't allow for this shortstack approach, and so we'll often get ourselves into true deeper stack situations (such as limped pots with high SPRs). That's fine too, we'll have lots of room to play poker postflop.

The problem for me is when we get in the very inbetween spots, where a raise and multiple callers handcuffs us with a smallish SPR; one that is too small to ever feel comfortable if we get all our chips in due to IO we offered all the callers, but at the same time too small to really do anything other than make a commitment decision one way or another ASAP.

GimoG

Can you be more specific on inbetween spots?

You're going to hit hard any S2C or S1c ~10% of the time (maybe a bit less, depending on your definition of hard). You're going to hit hard any SC a bit over 15%. PPs flop a set ~10% of the time.
When I think of fuqd LOLLIVE inbetween spots its like a 4-7bb raise + 5/6 callers with stacks ranging from 50bb-250bb, with most in the 100bb range. At which point, being a bit ABC yourself and relying on the usually crappy betsizing and transparent tendencies of most Vs goes a long, long way. Folding in 70% of these situations can still make them highly profitable. Is this the kind of middle situation you're thinking of?

This is exactly the inbetween spot I'm talking about, and getting into these spots with just a TP/overpair type hand is my personal version of hell. Everyone got awesome implied odds preflop. Most stacks will be able to go in just 2 streets (or even 1 street with a raise). Drawy boards we are reluctant to check in EP (giving a free card in a huge pot is pretty meh) and yet any bet will often commit us barring some incredible nit on nit action behind us. It's virtually impossible to distinguish whether we are up against a worse TP (easy money for us!) or a set / random two pair (easy money, for them!) or even a monster draw. I really think we're grasping at straws in this situation, but others seem to feel they have a solid handle in them.

My opinion has always been this: if you feel you strive in these spots, by all means, continue getting yourself into them. But if you feel otherwise (like I do), then avoid them.

Ggraspingatstraws,isthatactuallyathing?G

The things I find help with these spots:
1) HORRIFIC opponent betsizing
2) Continuing ranges highly imbalanced from Vs (2p+ and draws are all many will call a raise with)
3) Patience and failing to overvalue one pair hands.
4) Non-zero chance of 4-6 people hitting 0 and an aggro kid (its always a kid :P) going for a turn steal.
5) Steals


How to work with them:
1) DRAWS! You should be good enough to math your draws (e.g. 78ss on a board of 4s5dJc is easy to call a bet of 15 into a pot of 120 after an initial raiser and 2+ other callers w another 200+ behind multiple of them) and you can consider folding draws on paired boards and draws that will give other obvious draws the nuts when you hit (e.g. drawing to the inside straight for the sucker end).

2) You can checkraise and backraise both as steals and with some surprisingly middling hands. The chance of a set is smaller than you'd think, and alot of Vs, will bet/call draws and 2pair+ while bet/folding 1 pair hands. I don't recomend this on the regular, but if you're putting in the hours, a checkraise into multiple players with middle pair is ripe for execution at least 1 per 100 or 150 hands.
This is where knowing your villain is CRUCIAL. lots of LLSNL players do not adjust to multiway situations. If you play differently vs. 6 people than vs. 1 you're ahead of them. E.G. if you are initial raiser, ~95% Cbet vs 1-2 callers is fine. Against 4+ callers its a massacre

3) Its just 1 pair, or in the case of some idiots with AK. No pair! I have played hands that went like this. Hero gets KcKh 3bets LP in 1/3 to 30. 12 people call (it was really 7, but it felt like 12). Flop comes 356ddd BB bets (station, low aggression) UTG+1 raises (small time drug dealer, plays like OMC) folds to hero who tosses the KKs.
I don't mind taking TT-QQ multi way. Watch the board come up with overs and check/folding my way through a hand. I'd prefer to hit a set, or have an overpair--but this is RL and that **** just doesn't happen for me.
I play some trash, but if I'm staring at J6s 4+ way on J high, I am highly likely to check flop and start getting jiggy on turn/river when it looks like I'm stealing or because I can valuetown other LAG types (see 4)

4) Board reading is a thing and a pair is just a pair. Most LAG villains refuse to check TPGK+ on a board like this. Many OMCs in MP will 'bet to see where I'm at' on boards like this. If you know your villains and the action, it can be easy to lay down on the flop or call on the turn, depending on your holdings.
Esp once you move up to 2/5 there will be a guy who goes for it on the turn when it checks around and is likely to continue on the river--if you know the villain type its worth looking him up with Middle pair. A lot of these guys are just not conditioned to check top pair in this situation, making their ranges steals or monsters... Depending on position, monsters are often mathematically less likely and the exploitative adjustments to their table perception weight their range HEAVILY to steals (same guy bets turn 3X that its checked around multi-way--he's prob not got it all 3 times).

5) Steals! Look, sometimes nobody hits dick. And draws look way crappier on the turn. If it seems like nobody has hit anything, bet that turn --works great with a solid/nitty image.

I'm guessing, given your high PF raise amount and narrowish range, GG, that you're used to a very high C-bet %? As a self-taught live degen (w assist from Phone Booth and 2+2) , I ply my bizarre style with a much lower c-bet% because I am far more often multi-way. FAR less c-betting and more folding to flop aggression then you are likely used to is optimal in these spots (paired with some very different play in other spots as detailed elsewhere in this post).


People give way too little credit to the money that can be made ingray spots that result in medium size pots. While too much of people's thoughts goes into: "How can I get my set/overpair all in and still be good?!?!?!" You need to think more about the hands where you're sitting with 9Tss in HJ on a 3d9dJc board that went 5 way to the flop.
Its easy to forget hands where you go multiway with a low pair or SCs, have 1-2 overs around and check-flop, fold turn. Or check it all the way around to river where some shmuck bets and 2 guys (not you) call. And all the other rando-'boring'-marginal bull that happens every LOLLIVEorbit. Sure, maybe thats only 30-40% of these raised-donkey-show-pots, but still alot of hands and playing them right can be the entire key to majorly upping your w/r.


Think of it this way: regular 4+ way hands with a raise are a neon-sign people are playing bad poker at your table. I want to be at the table with lots of hands going multi-way with raises--its a guarantee ****ty players are giving money away (and good players who join in are also giving some away because they are playing to exploit). You don't need to be the best at these, just have better tools than enough of the competition and a set of balls to make some light calls and bluff-raises once in awhile.

Final salvo: This is the case where reading the general body language of your table is very much worth your time and effort. 5 people in a hand means 5 people you could spend more time reading; knowing 3 passives are disinterested in the hand is really important info, just as is knowing 1 passive is VERY interested in the hand.

Thanks guys, interesting stuff. I'll read those threads shortly.

So the way I see it you guys both play somewhat similar but Maskk I think is taking weird lines more often like taking preflop value hands postflop in high SPR situations. Howner, you are bother trying to avoid those awkward mI'd SPR multimate pots wit TPGK-Overpair spots?

I can certainly see the flat TT+ IP heads-up being very profitable in my game against the right players. The regs are always morbidly afraid IP players are drawing against them and have this horrible leak of just shovelling their stacks in when they hit top pair. It's almost like they bet more with their mediocre hands than their monsters.

Same time 3betting a wide value range completely crushes a lot of the loose-passive players in my game.

MaskK I guess you 3bet very polarised on average whereas GG you mostly 3bet a merged value range?
I imagine GG is lower variance, What BR do you guys use? (Obvs your both adjusting to specific opponents.)



Bit cheeky to ask but given my game fits somewhere in between yours I'm interested in what BR management you both use, appreciate it's maybe too much info for a public forum though...

I should say I much prefer to play deep stacked and do have some postflop skills but my bankroll precludes it at present. I employ a "always < 10% of BR on table" rule but with the caveat I can play on if I won it all off one £80 buy in. My other rule is minimum 20 buyins in my roll. I'm going to try to build up to £8,000 (so i can buy in at £400) before I take any profit out but my GF is kind of keen to see some benefit from my hours at the casino (currently at +£2,0000 over 73 hours and I withdrew my initial roll already).

Vs. unknowns my 3bet range is villain dependent, surprisingly trashy, and sized to elicit specific responses from villains in the hand (lots of OMC types will call 4BBs 6way, but fold to 8-12 more, where initial raisers and aggro types keep going--bigger bets rep bigger hands, and I can often get away with bluffing ace-high flops). If I'm ai preflop 100+BB deep without history, I have one of two hands AA, KK, and I am playing vs a bad maniac or an aggro bet monkey.
The more maniacal and crazy the table, the more short stacked the situation, the more that opens things up a bit. The more people know me, the more that has to open WAY up.
At an unknown table, I'm 3betting to squeeze and try and bluff my way to victory, looking to maximize fold equity with rando-**** in spots that I think are juicy (table-LAG raises, my image is clean, 2 nits call, and then I 3bet or limp-rere). As an unknown, my 3b range isn't just polarized, its heavily unbalanced towards trash as a way to maximize exploitable tendencies of my villains. Vs. people who know my ****, and want to party with me, the game becomes a donkeyshow.


I am also saying that I think the crappy multiway middle-SPR spots w decent raises are unavoidable, and that you should embrace them and work on how you play them. Thats why my last post offered guidance on ways to think about how to play multi-way **** shows. Why do I like these spots? To reiterate the concept: regular 4+way spots with middling SPRs is proof of a juicy game. I encourage these kinds of spots with any PP from 22-TT. Setmining is fantastic in spots where guys are likely to have 1 pair, the SPR makes it easy to get it all in, and as you noted, they are often bombing all decent 1 pair hands.

The bolded/italiced in your post is absolutely correct, and its corollary is: lots of bet/folding lines + if they have action on the turn after flop check-around it is a mix of MONSTERS and trash (player dependent). And doing it blindly is a leak (hell this whole thread was started because you hate shoveling lots of chips into multiway gray areas with one pair hands). Learn your opponents tendencies come up with weird lines, and opportunity abounds.

Pros: my approach is very actiony. Fish and whales love it (mainly because my preflop is pretty fuqqing loose) and it gets more players playing more hands while sometimes demoralizing socially inept troll types. There are significant meta-game benefits to looser styles if you are anything at all fun to play with as a human.

The hater's view:
1) my game is infested with FPS.
2) I do totally exploitable things.
3) It is much harder to replicate.
4) And it can get you run over.

Responses:
1) Absolutely
2) Absolutely, but villain dependent because I aim for exploitation over fundamental solidness
3) Also true--but I find that a benefit given that what I do inspires lots of people to degen it up with me (bluff at me, play more hands because there are more people in the hands and average pot size is going up, etc). The situations this thread hates is my comfort zone not my opponents.
4) O yeah. Some maniacs can really take me to task. When this starts to happen, I become more judicious preflop depending on villains, and only playing my hijinks in spots where the other player is not in the hand. I specialize in then coming up with all manner of defensive tricks to play back at said maniac. However, I like it when this happens, as it means someone(s) else is pushing the action and the table is likely pretty juicy.





(Cut the BR Q as thats a different Q for a different thread)

Thanks Maskk, good stuff. I'm going to reread all your posts and think on it a bit. No worries on BR info, I know I'd need more if I expanded my loose game to the degree you have yours I'm going to stay conservative for now but work on thinking of weird exploitative lines I could be taking when I'm folding or not in the hand.

Mastering my approach and switching from a short stack TAG to a deep stack station/lag/Rock (table depending) significantly upped my WR and lowered my session Vol. it was the turning point for me.

getting better at 150bb+ poker vs villains who suck at it makes a world of difference.


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Simply ask if it seems like a good spot for villain to xr 88/99 the only two value hands you really beat. Feels like JJ+ more than 88/99. Highly doubt he ever does this with a 6 or 77.

I would just fold.