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1/3: QQ, 3bet pot, J hi board, facing turn shove 1/3: QQ, 3bet pot, J hi board, facing turn shove

03-23-2017 , 04:15 PM
V ($300, SB) is a MAWG in a cap (feel of an online player) who just busted a $250 special tournament and sat down with $300. He seems loose/passive and I saw him call a $15 UTG raise in a 4-way pot with 63hh in BB closing the action, and then call a $35 cbet on 965cc and check through to showdown and win.

Hero ($1000, BTN) is sitting to his immediate right and hasn't been much active after Hero sat down.

OTTH..

1 limp, Hero raises $15 with QQ, V insta-raises $50, folds to Hero who calls

Flop ($106): T53hhs
V bets $60, Hero calls

Turn ($226): Js
V insta-shoves $190, Hero ??

Thoughts on precious streets?

Is folding pre reasonable as live players rarely 3b <AA/KK? Given positions and the player, I felt his range could be wider (JJ+/AQ) so decided to drop the nit gown and call and take a flop. 4b not an option as it's clearly an overplay at these stakes often.

Flop is a clear (?) call to see what he does OTT. Ripping all turns if he checks. Deciding if he shoves.

Turn is a terrible card, since now we lose to everything except AK (and sometimes AQ, but we block that). Without a read that he's capable of shoving AK here, and given his loose/passive play before, feels like I have to give him credit here?

Based on all this, is calling flop to fold to turn shoves a leak in this spot? Feels like we're better off just folding pre or OTF then?

Last edited by JohnnyBux; 03-23-2017 at 04:32 PM.
1/3: QQ, 3bet pot, J hi board, facing turn shove Quote
03-23-2017 , 04:34 PM
Read seems a little contradictory; does "online player" and "loose/passive" jive?

A decent read is pretty important overall here to our line. Against the majority of players, I'd fold preflop to the 3bet. Against spewtards who'll 3bet light and feel committed to a 4bet, I'd shove. Against those who could see our raise as a wide iso attempt but will fold to a 4bet and perhaps barrel a street or two, I guess I don't mind flatting.

As played, by the time we get to the turn a couple of worse hands have gotten there (JJ/TT) and so we're really only ahead of overcards (that perhaps have a flush draw with their gutshot).

The bottom line for me is that an opponent who has the word "passive" in his description just 3bet preflop and bet the flop and turn for stacks, so I'd most likely lean towards a fold somewhere along the way (the earlier the better).

GexploitableG
1/3: QQ, 3bet pot, J hi board, facing turn shove Quote
03-23-2017 , 04:40 PM
Pre and flop look fine to me. I guess you could make it $150/c pre but I'd rather just flat in position, esp given description of villain. Turn is a sigh fold absent other reads - most of his range with the exception of AQhh/AK has you crushed.

Zero chance I'm folding pre for $35 more.
1/3: QQ, 3bet pot, J hi board, facing turn shove Quote
03-23-2017 , 05:35 PM
Spots like these really rely so much on the player read. You described him as "passive." In this spot, you generally straight up fold to a passive player. Unfortunately I think it all hinges on the accuracy of your read/description. Based on what you've given us, we kinda always have to say fold. So I don't know if you're gonna get a lot from this.
1/3: QQ, 3bet pot, J hi board, facing turn shove Quote
03-23-2017 , 05:43 PM
4bet pre and its not close. This is BTN v. SB not UTG v. SB, opponent's range is wider. Your hand is way to vulnerable to A/K-high flops. If you want to slowplay use a hand like AA. I'm 4betting JJ+, AK for value here. AP, turn is a call given dude is highly volatile preflop and is probably tilted from just busting the tournament. If he has KK+ or a set so be it, thats poker.

edit: he only needs 8ish combos of bluffs for this to be a call... call

Last edited by StraightFlooosh; 03-23-2017 at 05:49 PM.
1/3: QQ, 3bet pot, J hi board, facing turn shove Quote
03-23-2017 , 05:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyBux

Based on all this, is calling flop to fold to turn shoves a leak in this spot? Feels like we're better off just folding pre or OTF then?
Having hands that call flop and fold turn is definitely okay.
1/3: QQ, 3bet pot, J hi board, facing turn shove Quote
03-23-2017 , 06:30 PM
4 bet pre/gii vs his stack size. This hand should play itself. Flop call is okay. Folding the turn because we only beat AK.
1/3: QQ, 3bet pot, J hi board, facing turn shove Quote
03-23-2017 , 10:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redskins 47
4 bet pre/gii vs his stack size. This hand should play itself. Flop call is okay. Folding the turn because we only beat AK.
I'm sorry, but this is just bad advice for 1-3. V's have super narrow 3-bet ranges at this level, even in SB/button scenarios. Hands that we dominate like TT, JJ, and AQ are much more likely to just flat call our PF raise in an attempt to try and pick off our bluffs. They aren't as likely to be played aggressively. Especially when our opponents know that they will be playing the hand OOP.

Against a tournament player, there's a chance he could be 3-betting with a wider range in this spot, but if stacks get in PF then we are 100% flipping at best, or we are completely crushed.

Flatting in position is way superior. We can set mine, and sometimes win a medium sized pot if our opponent gets mubsy and decides to check his 99-JJ hands and we win at showdown, or even win a river bet.

The point is, we don't need to take such high variance lines at 1-3 because are opponents are playing face-up enough to avoid stacking off when we run into the top of our opponents range.
1/3: QQ, 3bet pot, J hi board, facing turn shove Quote
03-23-2017 , 11:05 PM
His look. Played a tourney. The insta bets. All say wp and call.

the 63s history and LLSNL tendencies say fold somewhere.
1/3: QQ, 3bet pot, J hi board, facing turn shove Quote
03-23-2017 , 11:07 PM
button vs sb, not really planning to fold typically
1/3: QQ, 3bet pot, J hi board, facing turn shove Quote
03-24-2017 , 01:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark "twang"
I'm sorry, but this is just bad advice for 1-3. V's have super narrow 3-bet ranges at this level, even in SB/button scenarios. Hands that we dominate like TT, JJ, and AQ are much more likely to just flat call our PF raise in an attempt to try and pick off our bluffs. They aren't as likely to be played aggressively. Especially when our opponents know that they will be playing the hand OOP.

Against a tournament player, there's a chance he could be 3-betting with a wider range in this spot, but if stacks get in PF then we are 100% flipping at best, or we are completely crushed.

Flatting in position is way superior. We can set mine, and sometimes win a medium sized pot if our opponent gets mubsy and decides to check his 99-JJ hands and we win at showdown, or even win a river bet.

The point is, we don't need to take such high variance lines at 1-3 because are opponents are playing face-up enough to avoid stacking off when we run into the top of our opponents range.
Mis-read OP. Thought it was 2/5.
1/3: QQ, 3bet pot, J hi board, facing turn shove Quote
03-24-2017 , 06:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sai1b0ats
button vs sb, not really planning to fold typically
Do 1/3 villains really think about positions?
1/3: QQ, 3bet pot, J hi board, facing turn shove Quote
03-24-2017 , 07:17 AM
pre and flop, are super marginal between call and fold imo. Typically villans, esp loose passive villans never 3b without KK+, except for occasional spaz. But, he may be spazzing, or he may 3b/cbet with AK. By the turn, there is just no way he is spazzing, he has TT+ almost 100% here.
1/3: QQ, 3bet pot, J hi board, facing turn shove Quote
03-24-2017 , 09:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyBux
Do 1/3 villains really think about positions?
Limited. Them thinking you are wide on the button is often a thing. As others have said, it comes down to the read. QQ can lead to tough decisions. I've seen too many tourney players spaz though.
1/3: QQ, 3bet pot, J hi board, facing turn shove Quote
03-24-2017 , 10:52 AM
What do you think about his 3bet range? If you think he has KK+ only, of course you should fold now, but you should have folded pre-flop if you think his 3 bet range is that tight.

If you think his 3bet range is KK+, AK and he will cbet AK then semi-bluff it on the turn, you have around 47% of equity and you should call.

If you think his range is wider at turn, like TT+, AK, AQh, AQs, you still have around 40 % equity which you should still call.

I think villain at least has AK in his range, so I call.
1/3: QQ, 3bet pot, J hi board, facing turn shove Quote
03-24-2017 , 05:45 PM
I mean, all the ranges people seem to be giving to justify calling go against the "passive" read. That's my problem with the hand. Vs the average villain, yes, you can easily call here. I just think it's heavily read-based and difficult to get anything constructive beyond that. I've been in almost this exact spot where it was an easy call and another similar spot where it was an easy fold
1/3: QQ, 3bet pot, J hi board, facing turn shove Quote

      
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