Had this hand come up last night and I'm not sure if I love my turn action.

Hero is young looking grinder type sipping a cocktail. Have been playing fairly aggressive so far and haven't had many hands go to showdown but showed down two nice pots with one pair hands. I have probably 3! or raised a straddle 3-4x now that villain has seen over 1.5 - 2 hours, and open raised or raised limpers many other times.

Villain is a late 30's euro/mid eastern guy that looks more rec than reg. Only notable hand I saw him play was calling a straddle with K5s, GII on the turn when flush hits and losing on the river to the naked A when 4th club hit and started exhibiting signs of entitlement tilt after and incorrectly stating the math/odds/outs/etc. Hasn't been raising many hands preflop.

OTTH

Effective Stacks: $350-635

EP limps
Villain (MP, $635) raises to $15
LJ ($350) calls $15
HJ folds
Hero (CO, $1300) raises KK to $60
BTN, SB, BB, EP fold
Villain calls $60
LJ calls $60

I was fine with preflop sizing. Not trying to go bigger to only get folds. Wasn't necessarily expecting the LJ to call/call, but what the hell -
the more the merrier.

Flop ($180): J J 7

Villain donks $75
LJ folds
Hero calls $75

I was on the fence here whether to call or raise. Sizing is kind of weak. I think it could be anything from Jx to a probe bet with QQ/TT/99 type hands and maybe even a flush draw. I thought his turn action would be a little more telling.

Turn ($330): 3

Villain donks $100
Hero ... ?

Villain has about $400 behind (after his $100 bet). Hard to read too much into this bet but I am reasonably sure we have the best hand. Options are 1) call turn and call/shove clean rivers; 2) raise turn small and shove clean rivers; 3) shove turn

I like Pre and flop play.

Villain has 500 to start the turn, so 400 after the $100 bet. If villain wasnt on tilt, Id opt to flat turn and probably fold to a river shove. But given the tilt read and the read that we are probly ahead, we're basically never folding. So since we don't have the K of hearts, I would lean towards just jamming turn since if he has a flush draw, this is the nut worst result for villain, therefore best result for us.

With K of hearts I go the call - call route.

Call flop is good, you dont want a raising range here except maybee AJs if you squeeze here, which I don't think is better than flatting pre. Not just from theory pov but calling and giving him rope will let him make more mistakes, raising gives him opportunities to play better vs your range.

Turn would just flat again, if you jam, he folds all his low equity hands and GII with combo draws/Jx. Also when 200bb goes in, I doubt he shows up with 88-1010, might even fold QQ. Whereas if river is a blank and you shove, he could easily look you up putting you on AQhh/AKhh/any busted hearts.

Preflop sizing pretty good, probably go $65 with limper dead money but not really a big deal

Agree with everything Minatorr said. Hand looks good so far. Now call. What's river?

Why are you "reasonably sure" that you have the best hand? If I was V, I'd play Jx this way a lot and get you to call me down with your obvious AA-QQ.

Not sure why you'd shove turn, it's pretty bad as most Vs just check/call their FDs at 1/3 and not lead twice into the PF3BR.

Call turn/evaluate river obv.

How he play K5 hand when he made flush?

Did he donk flush draw? Was he OOP?

With so little to go by. I think calling is our best option.

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I'm taking a bluff catch / station line here like always on this board vs a potentially tilting villain who has plenty of bluffs and overvalued pairs in his range.


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im sort of just buckling up and calling down here as well. we dont have a ton of Jx hands... i assume we are ok flatting hadns like JTs/QJs/KJs/AJs if we want to play them, with the occasionally squeeze with AJo, but for the most part, our 3b range doesnt consist of a whole lot of Jx.

AA/KK with no hearts are really our best hands here.

So my thoughts here were, intuitively I felt in real-time that calling turn was better from a theory POV, but I was wondering if there was a better exploitable adjustment we could make.

Like at what stack depth does raising turn become a better option than calling turn? As mentioned, I believe I am mostly ahead now and want to find the line that gets stacks in here vs. a range that is probably PP's and the handful of combo draws like AK, AQ, AT, KQ. I don't think villain has many naked bluffs here (but could overplay worse made hands) and I'm not sure if he is considering my range or not.

The 3 combos with an Ace have 11-12 versus us which I don't necessarily want him to get to the river setting his own 1/3 PSB price. Calling turn keeps his entire range in, but how likely is it we get stacks in on the river? There will be $400 behind and a pot of $525. I think it's far more likely he x/f's the river or b/f's small like he has been on the streets prior.

On a separate tangent, if we think he folds QQ- to a turn shove then we have a very profitable turn shove with our AK combos, specifically the AKx and AxK combos that could float the flop. If his calling range is Jx and combos draws and we block AJ/KJ and some of those combo draws then jamming turn seems ++++EV. However, I would think most people would say "you have no FE jamming turn when villain donks into you two streets in a row in a 3! pot."

I'm thinking a turn raise to $225-250 would be just enough to keep this cat curious to see a river and by that time the pot would be $780-800 with only $350 behind and it would be very very difficult for him to get away from a river shove on non- and non-A/K rivers.

everything seems fine to me so flat turn and prepare to call some rivers. Villain has some Jx in his range along w/ a bunch of things youre way ahead of and I dont see him stacking off with much of anything you beat besides QQ. That said playing with a plan to extract value, raising merely shuts out a lot of his bluffs.

I wouldnt worry about balancing your play if you've already assessed flaws in villains game and see opportunities to play exploitatively.

With regard to QQ i think its necessary to add its a bit hard to say whether this guy is recreational enough to always flat QQ here pre flop or 4bet - cant really form an opinion based on what was stated.

regarding the raise size - i dont see too much issue with flop sizing considering 3! pot and stack sizes, flop texture and its MW - all of those factors should reasonably allow sizes to tend smaller than normal, whether our villain is adept enough to realize that is another argument tho

JB, What hands are you thinking he would bet/Fold rivers with but will call a larger turn Raise? And isn't that countered by the bluffs that would potentially 3 barrel bricked rivers with some frequency?

I get charging his draws but even they are relatively high equity and when combined with the rest of his continuing range to a turn Raise that is ahead of us it's probably fairly close to 50/50ish depending on just how many pps will call that turn Raise. So in terms of pure value there's not really that much EV to the turn Raise unless he's very sticky with the PPs. I mean it's going to be tough to call a min raise oop with a hand like TT and I think you may need him to for it to be+EV overall.

Lastly if we min Raise are we raise/folding or are we folding to his open river jams on certain rivers? Like him we will be getting an attractive price.

I feel like raising turn potentially narrows his range too much and commits us against that significantly stronger range.



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3) shove turn (assuming your reads are correct). If he is donking with his draws or smaller pairs, he could talk/level himself into calling it off imho?

I would go for 1) if I am not sure if I have the best hand. I would not go for 1) as a way to extract more money, as he only puts in more money OTR if he gets there or has me beat already.

I would very rarely go for 2) almost never with these effective stack sizes.

I recently had a villain take a similar line that was strange to me at the time and similar to this. Small bet, small bet, small bet. He ended up showing TPGK and I won with TP better kicker.

Point being, it was a made hand but not a monster, which in the context of this hand would be QQ/TT, add the tilt factor and maybe 7x SC's and A7s are in range here. I would think that Jx would be going bigger OTT. AA should also be going bigger OTT, but the tilt factor might be making his bet sizing screwy.

I think this feels like KK is good here most of the time. My range for villain is QQ, TT, A7s, T9s, 89s, 87s, 76s. For the sake of balance, I'll add in AA. With this range, we have 77.5% equity and then we should raise to try to GII OTR. I like a min-raise here. My thinking is a shove only gets called by better. A min raise gets called by worse and makes river shoves difficult for villain to fold to when they are tilting. (Plus min-raises against tilted players drives them crazy and is entertainment in itself. I'm recreational, deal with it. )

If we add AJs,KJs, QJs, and JTs (and JJ) our equity drops to 63.7%. A min-raise will induce these hands to shove OTT, no? We can fold exploitatively, no? Will villain, donk lead twice and then jam to a raise with worse hands here?

I'm very open to the idea that the above is stupid, just wondering what you think about it.

EDIT: Read through the thread and found you were thinking raising small as well. Question stands.

Your logic wrt to the turn is flawed Johnny. The only hands that might call turn that would fold river are combo draws.

I suck at deepstack.

I actually find preflop quite difficult, especially with my nit image (as 3 betting will often turn my hand face up and setup an impossible-to-fold postflop situation, so if I'm going to do that I'm going to have to make sure not to offer too good IO and therefore make it $95, which of course is unlikely to get called, but then again taking down $37 uncontested and rake-free isn't a horrendous result either). Course you have a much more active image, so you're probably a lot cooler with setting yourself up to a SPR ~5 while offering 14:1 IO.

Most people don't donk a J here, although in a 3bet pot that is slightly drawy against a *perhaps* face-up hand it certainly would be a nice play. I also just call.

Turn is tricky too. The pot is currently $430 and he "only" has $400 behind (< PSB) so a shove is certainly "reasonable" in terms of relative to size of pot. But how often does a $400 bet go in during your 1/3 NL game? It very rarely goes in during my game, as this is a *massive* bet, and I'm not convinced there's too many worse hands that call it. Heck, even QQ probably makes it's fair share of hero folds here to this action. But on the other hand we kinda look like we're committed to the pot and he might be on a draw with this sizing (or maybe not, maybe $100 is simply a damn big bet even though it's a lol < 1/3 PSB bet). Allowing him to suck out in a big pot ain't a great result.

But I'm just stating the obvious. We're risking the pot (which is huge, the biggest one we might win tonight?) to give a free card to perhaps win even more off this guy if a blank comes (where it's unlikely he'll be able to get away from QQ and perhaps even TT if it blanks and he bets). I'm more conservative and probably just play for the pot now, and if we take down a $430 pot against a worse hand now, "oh well".

Gsucksatdeepstack,obviouslyG

I would hate to raise a tilted guy who could jam his FD ott

would he really donk out a jack to a guy who's fairly aggressive?

Call the turn

\ IMO

I guess there are degrees of tilt, but jamming in 2 BIs is some *massive* tilt that I don't see too often. I more see the tilting players slowly dwindle their stack to like the ~$100 range which can then get in extremely easy; but ~$600 stacks is quite a different monster, even for those on tilt.

Gimo,butobviouslyopponentdependentG

I like raising turn small as well and folding to further action. It has the added benefit of potentially setting showdown price. Or saving you money if you were going to call a river.

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Results?

I shoved turn and he tank folded. If I could do it over I would have likely minraised to $225-250 but that could be results oriented.