I agree...and if this is true and knowing you have close to zero FE, the argument for 3betting pre becomes moot BECAUSE (and this is important) villain is short stacked. In other words 3betting is not more +EV than flatting pre, except you have to be sure of blinds tendencies, which Op says table is passive and no one is playing back at him.
Villain Cbets any flop and we shove over

Of course 3betting PF is +EV if you have an equity edge vs his range. Wtf.

So you're saying flat pre and then shove over his cbet? I didn't consider this, and maybe this is a better move... *if* we end up HU (which is unlikely).

We flat, pot it 43.

Villain cbets 30 and we jam 180?

3betting pre is way better.

3betting pf > folding pf > flatting pf

Ya, now that you put the numbers out, that kinda looks retarded.

Key word ASSUMING.

Why assume when you can a) sit back and wait for someone else to 3bet and see what happens or b) Have TT+ when you 3bet and know you're likely good when he plays trash and hits a flop with top pair.

Your description of villain looks as if there is zero fold equity against this guy. So he hits flop, never folds, and you have to try to suck out, or he has AK, AQ, AJ etc, never folds and you're back to sucking out against high cards.

So....we have an aggrodonk and our strategy is "i'll assume I have fold equity when I have seen nothing to make this assumption and if I don't, I can always suck out"

how about he calls, we both miss flop and we pick up a decent pot?

how about we both hit the flop and we stack him?

Aren't we just turning our hand into a bluff here? Not saying its good or bad , but we certainly aren't betting for value her. I think this play may work with a ton of live players as they view our 3 bet as TT+. With our stack size a jam doesn't look all that Buffy

I love it and I don't see how anybody can argue with the flop shove. The only street of contention is preflop imo.

A huge LOL at all the posts saying never 3b kq you only get called by better. Have any of you ever played with loose players? Seriously we can fist pump raise this for value. Now of course we shove the flop because even the craziest villains will have some trouble calling of the rest with a9s or something of the like. This hand is wp in my opinion. This reminds me of a hand I played vs a guy who had hardly a clue what he was doing. He would often minraise a raised pot after 5 callers and then fold to a shove.

Anyways he limps. A relatively tight player opens from to 10, I flat with aqo on the button. Villain min raises to 20 from ep. Tight player folds and usually this is obv an instant muck but instead I 4b to 85. Villain calls. Flop 952 rainbow he shoves his last 65. I call he shows 23o. (obv I bink
An ace) anyways the moral is there are many players who you can open your 3b and 4b ranges vs.

I guess if the guy just totally sucks. If he is halfway decent he is folding trouble hands like KJ, KT QT QJ etc to a 3B. So if you hit top pair and are facing aggression he either has one pair beat, or he has a better kicker.

I'd much rather call and play against his wide range than to 3B/F against him.

Just for the record, I didn't/am not saying 3betting pre is not +EV and am certainly not making an argument that you only get called by better. My first instinct in reading this thread was that it's pretty standard...nh/wp. However, I'm just bringing up the question (and am still uncertain) whether 3betting pre is any more +EV than flatting pre. I'm bringing this up for a couple of reasons:

1) When we 3bet pre, with villain's effective stack consideration, is there a possibility that villain becomes more ATTACHED to his hand, and thus our FE shrinks to almost zero? ( we already know that we have close to zero FE preflop. I'm talking about flops that we whiff) Does villain (given reads on his look/appearance) not want to get bullied off of the pot and would boost his own ego by hero-calling us super light?

2) When we flat pre, we haven't seized initiative from him. The dynamics of this table have not changed (he raises pre and takes down most pots preflop or by flop bet) So if we flat pre and then raise villain's flop cbet (for value or as a bluff) can we assume our FE is higher?

If the answer is "yes", then is our FE + our hand equity greater if we flat preflop vs. 3bet pre??

This is basically what I am asking....Note: I am not advocating a defacto flat pre line..it's just a nice discussion to have

True...but if he pots the flop, then a shove is basically the same ratio
$123 in the pot and $140 to call

You guys are clueless as to how fish play, you put him on >QK and have him thinking he's pot commited. He's a fish, and he wants to suck out on what looks like KK+

IMO, villain is only playing the absolute strength of his hand and doesn't care much about what hero's range of hands is.

Given that, if he hits the board, he's probably stacking off close to 100%, and if he misses, I am guessing he's going to check/fold without more information.

I do not think villain will turn his hand into a bluff on turn if we check, and if he checks again on turn, I am pretty certain he's folding to our bet.