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1/3: AA on paired flop OOP, facing river raise 1/3: AA on paired flop OOP, facing river raise

10-29-2014 , 10:06 PM
Hero ($300, SB): Has a pretty tight image

V ($230, BB): Young guy is down 6 beers, plays quite a few hands, but he seems okayish. I have seen him making a small bluff earlier otr when he missed and bet an odd number like $41 into $80 into 2/3 players and got called and showed his hand saying "I missed". But in general, not too out of line.

2 limpers in EP, Hero looks down at AA in SB and raises to $16 (intended to make it $21, missed a $5 chip by mistake), V in BB calls, others fold

Flop ($40): 994r
Hero bets $20, V calls

Turn ($80): 3r
Hero bets $40, V calls

River ($160): 4
Hero bets $50, V raises to $140, Hero folds

I'm sure I misplayed this but then you guys always recommend bet/bet/bet lines and V could look me up with PPs here so I was making a thin value bet OTR but realised that that betsize is too exploitable OTR because Hero NEVER reaches river with a 9x. I face a lot of trouble with AA/KK type stuff on these boards.
1/3: AA on paired flop OOP, facing river raise Quote
10-29-2014 , 10:55 PM
NH; WP.
1/3: AA on paired flop OOP, facing river raise Quote
10-29-2014 , 10:59 PM
Good bet fold
1/3: AA on paired flop OOP, facing river raise Quote
10-29-2014 , 11:49 PM
It's okay to slowplay here. It might even be a textbook example. If you're ahead, he has two outs and if you're behind, you have two outs. He has a lot of hands that need to catch a turn to even think about calling you. When you are beat, checking is the best play. When you are ahead, checking is usually the best play. So, you should probably check. The more likely he is to bluff because he puts you on AK, the stronger the case is for checking.
1/3: AA on paired flop OOP, facing river raise Quote
10-30-2014 , 06:03 AM
^^^ I don't get what you're saying. What's your play on every street?
1/3: AA on paired flop OOP, facing river raise Quote
10-30-2014 , 08:22 AM
This is why I depart from a lot of folks on 2+2 and think an overpair in this type of situation is worth 2 streets of value, but not 3. I'm actually fine with any 2 streets to bet on: Bet-Bet-Check(call reasonable river bet), Check-bet-bet, or Bet-check-Bet. This way, the raise (or bet) you face on the river is more callable and you have feigned a little weakness, which means V's raising range is even weaker and your call even more justifiable.
1/3: AA on paired flop OOP, facing river raise Quote
10-30-2014 , 11:49 AM
Wish we would have gotten that extra $5 chip in there preflop, it just makes stacking off postflop that much easier.

I still feel committed on this flop though. I would take a bet/bet line that sets up a river shove, which is more-or-less what we did (leaving about a PSB left, although I probably bet slightly more on earlier streets to make it less).

I'm of the opinion that if we get to the river with ~PSB left with an overpair and dodn't feel committed then somehow we've made a mistake (cuz I don't we can ever manage a fold unless a super scary card comes). I'm open shoving the river.

ETA: I'm the only one who feels committed on this flop with SPR 5.35 and us having toppest overpair? Heck, there are even a bunch of worse hands Villain plays exactly the same way thinking he's trapping us (KK-TT).

GcluelessNLnoobG
1/3: AA on paired flop OOP, facing river raise Quote
10-30-2014 , 12:07 PM
Announce your raise next time so you don't make any mistakes. Bet fold $100 on river for value and so you don't have to guess. Your small bet could've induced a bluff from bottom pair or a Hand like ace hi or KQ that was calling u down
1/3: AA on paired flop OOP, facing river raise Quote
10-30-2014 , 12:52 PM
Pretty standard bet/fold on the river.

Rest of the hand is mostly well played. I might bet a bit more on the flop/turn as people will call down lighter on the paired board.
1/3: AA on paired flop OOP, facing river raise Quote
10-30-2014 , 01:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iraisetoomuch
Rest of the hand is mostly well played. I might bet a bit more on the flop/turn as people will call down lighter on the paired board.
If we bet any more on flop/turn (which I agree with), we're gonna have like 1/2 PSB left on the river.

GnotsurewhyI'mtheonlyonewhofeelscommittedontheflop G
1/3: AA on paired flop OOP, facing river raise Quote
10-30-2014 , 02:30 PM
So you guys are stacking off in these spots with AA on DOUBLE PAIRED boards?? :/ I'm so lost
1/3: AA on paired flop OOP, facing river raise Quote
10-30-2014 , 02:34 PM
The fact that the bourd double paired really doesn't change our decisions on the flop or turn as we don't know that the board will double pair on the river.

In addition, if he has 4X then he's pretty terrible for calling bets with bottom pair no draws on the flop and turn, so if he gets ahead of my on the river, then yes I'm pretty ok stacking off to him.
1/3: AA on paired flop OOP, facing river raise Quote
10-30-2014 , 02:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek
If we bet any more on flop/turn (which I agree with), we're gonna have like 1/2 PSB left on the river.

GnotsurewhyI'mtheonlyonewhofeelscommittedontheflop G
I don't get it GG, in some other thread you recommended betting 1/2 pot on every street to get value and be able to bet/fold. Ace high will look up a small bet whereas a bigger bet is mostly only getting called by 9x at these stakes. Factor in my image too and 77 is folding turn.
1/3: AA on paired flop OOP, facing river raise Quote
10-30-2014 , 02:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iraisetoomuch
The fact that the bourd double paired really doesn't change our decisions on the flop or turn as we don't know that the board will double pair on the river.

In addition, if he has 4X then he's pretty terrible for calling bets with bottom pair no draws on the flop and turn, so if he gets ahead of my on the river, then yes I'm pretty ok stacking off to him.
I don't understand why everyone's eliminating 9x or A4s from their range pre
1/3: AA on paired flop OOP, facing river raise Quote
10-30-2014 , 02:56 PM
The difference boils down to SPR. In small SPR HU pots, the Villain has simply put in too much of their stack preflop to be profitable, so just stack off postflop on non-******ed boards. In higher SPR pots, the Villain has put in a smallish percentage of his stack preflop, so we can't just be stacking off postflop.

My own personal guideline in HU cases where I've got an overpair / TPTK, in general:

SPR <= 4, we're brain dead committed, with 5 not being too far behind
SPR 6-9, typically would like to pot control and get 2 streets of postflop value, can't stack off
SPR 10+, can pot control and get 2 streets, or bet/fold smallish for 3 streets, and again can't stack off

Gguidelines,itdepends,yadayadayada,butgooddefault, imoG
1/3: AA on paired flop OOP, facing river raise Quote
10-30-2014 , 03:03 PM
Umm okay. So let's stay stacks were deeper, what's your line in this hand?
1/3: AA on paired flop OOP, facing river raise Quote
10-30-2014 , 03:15 PM
Deeper stacks means higher SPRs, so I would play basically according to my SPR chart. If we don't feel we should be committing, then I'd probably lean towards a flop check OOP since I'd love a street to check thru, and go from there.
1/3: AA on paired flop OOP, facing river raise Quote
10-30-2014 , 04:32 PM
Grunch:
Bet bigger on turn
1/3: AA on paired flop OOP, facing river raise Quote
10-30-2014 , 05:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianNit
It's okay to slowplay here. It might even be a textbook example. If you're ahead, he has two outs and if you're behind, you have two outs. He has a lot of hands that need to catch a turn to even think about calling you. When you are beat, checking is the best play. When you are ahead, checking is usually the best play. So, you should probably check. The more likely he is to bluff because he puts you on AK, the stronger the case is for checking.
You can't really slowplay a hand that can't withstand raises. If you check the flop, you really can't rely on getting 3 bets of value comfortably. Save "letting him catch up" for spots where that's your only chance of getting multiple streets of value.

I agree that you should bet bigger on flop/turn and shove river. I also agree that river is a standard b/f as played.

GG, i think you're putting too much stock in PNL. SPR is a useful consideration, but it's not the end-all, be-all for whether you should stack off in any hand.
1/3: AA on paired flop OOP, facing river raise Quote
10-30-2014 , 05:29 PM
We bet bigger when the board is wet. I don't get why a half pot bet is bad on such a dry flop.
1/3: AA on paired flop OOP, facing river raise Quote
10-30-2014 , 05:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzypants
We bet bigger when the board is wet. I don't get why a half pot bet is bad on such a dry flop.
Because there are a million more factors in poker to consider when bet sizing than just where the board falls on the dryness -> wetness spectrum.

In this case, we have a hand that can play for very fat value and that we want to be able to get stacks in without a raise, and we're playing someone who is going to be hard-pressed to fold an overpair regardless of sizing.
1/3: AA on paired flop OOP, facing river raise Quote
10-30-2014 , 06:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by surviva316
You can't really slowplay a hand that can't withstand raises. If you check the flop, you really can't rely on getting 3 bets of value comfortably. Save "letting him catch up" for spots where that's your only chance of getting multiple streets of value.
If you bet the flop, you really can't rely on getting 3 bets of value comfortably, either. (This depends a lot on your opponent, of course.)

AA is practically the same as 97 here because villain has few hands that beat AA but not 97. Hands behind either of those have about the same number of outs, so giving a free card doesn't hurt. I think you might be less skeptical of the idea that it's okay to check 97, but I think checking 97 and checking AA should be equally acceptable.

If you think AA can't withstand a raise, then that is a further argument for checking, if you fear getting bluff-raised.
1/3: AA on paired flop OOP, facing river raise Quote

      
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