Hero: 20s/30s white male. Just sat down less than 30 min ago. Been playing my share of hands, mostly raising preflop, cbetting flop, then folding when obvious straight or flush came in and opponent bet into me. Not sure image is even relevant to villain. Stack $250

Villain: 50s/60s white male. Surprisingly aggro for an older man. Had one hand with him where I praised pf, he calls. Flop A23r he checks I bet 15 into 24ish and he c/r to 55. I fold and he shows A3s. I've seen him bluff twice since I've been here. Seems pretty loose, calling raises and in a lot of hands. Stack is huge because he flopped quads and got paid. Stack $550

HH1: villain limps UTG, folds to BTN raises to 15, folds to v who calls. Flop Q83 c/c turn 5 v bets 20 btn calls. River 8 v bets 35 btn calls v says "you're good" and btn shows 99 to scoop.

HH2: villain limps, young player on a streak of cards makes it 15, 2 calls including v. Flop KJ8hh checks to pfr bets 25 v calls other fold. Turn 3 v bets 45 pfr calls. River 2 both check pfr shows J8o to scoop.

On to the hand

Folds to Hero in UTG+2 who opens to 13 with AA, folds to villain who calls in SB, BB folds.

Flop: 4T6 (pot=$25)

Villain checks, hero bets 22, villain apparently thinks there's another player to act before him and just waits till dealer informs him it's heads up. He then apologizes for the wait and raises to 50. Hero..?

Whatever you do, don't raise the flop...

Never folding flop obviously but very worried about villains act

Flop sizing is too large aswell

Call and probably just keep calling. Villain won't be bluffing but could easily just think a good T is the nuts.

Edit: Flop bet is too big.

Flop bet is fine. You could go a little smaller, but I wouldn't go much less than $20, so don't see the problem.

Call flop vs. this player and evaluate turn.

Has he ever check/raised before? It's a little concerning, but could easily be a draw on this board.

Interested in what we think "our share of hands" should be after not even 30 minutes? I mean, if we're at all TAGgish, this could easily be zero hands, and yet it sounds we've been involved in multiple pots already. We might have an active loose aggro image.

I'd feel a lot more comfortable getting in a lot more of my stack preflop so I can commit easy postflop. $25 is not considered outrageous at my typical table, so that's typically what I'd do here with this stack, but maybe your table isn't that way. Could also simply limp/reraise at loose tables to setup a trivial spot as well.

With this preflop raise size, we've kinda setup an awkward spot against this guy, imo. The SPR is 9, so we can fairly easily play for stacks postflop, especially if this guy check/raises. The question is whether we are comfortable doing that, even against this guy, especially since we only got in 5% of our stack preflop.

So I would make a plan right away. Are we comfortable playing for stacks postflop against this guy? If so, bet/bet/bet for stacks and don't fold. If not, then I would check back the flop and go for two streets of bluff catching (since I would not be comfortable folding to a check/raise, and yet that is what I would have to do if I don't feel committed).

To me, if you're asking the question of what to do at this point, it's as if you didn't see this coming (you should have seen a check/raise from this guy coming from a mile away) and didn't have a plan to deal with it. Make sure you have a plan before you bet.

ETA: As played, the check/raise is a little concerning because so far this guy's MO with big hands is to check/raise and with weak hands to check and then donk turn/river. But, as said above, he could also think Tx is the nuts. It really comes back to having a plan.

GcluelessNLnoobG

So he played 2 pair passively and c/r a weak hand? Doesn't seem too tough of a player. He might try to deny equity vs players who cbet a lot, but it's something simpler in his head like "I can't win this hand if I don't raise". I'm calling down non-club, non-T runouts. He's probably gonna make a lot of mistakes if you just hand him the wheel.

He check/raised me with two pair, but he went pretty large in that instance.

I've played 4 hands I think GG. First hand raised pf cbet and won, then the other hands I had raised pf, cbet flop, then turn had brought the draw on the flop and opponents bet out on turn or river after I checked. My image should be aggressive, if villain is paying attention. As I said I'm not sure that's the case.


Folds to Hero in UTG+2 who opens to 13 with AA, folds to villain who calls in SB, BB folds.

Flop: 4T6 (pot=$25)

Villain checks, hero bets 22, villain apparently thinks there's another player to act before him and just waits till dealer informs him it's heads up. He then apologizes for the wait and raises to 50. Hero calls.

Turn 4T69 (pot=$125)

Villain bets 50, hero...?

Call down mode, get it in here, or fold to continued aggression?

we are really not that deep here. 8xing pre just because you want to make things easier misses out on a lot of value. preflop raise size is absolutely fine.

As played, wer´re still building a pretty big pot here, but I don´t have a problem with that at all, villain seems to be overly loose and sticky, I don´t think he´d be able to fold much of his c/r range, and on this texture against an even wide sb flatting range we should be well ahead, I´d happily 3bet/gii on the flop. Not my standard line, but against this guy? happily 130/call it off.

hand looks fine so far - now jam turn

I think I'm in call-down mode. Might be weak, but meh. Whatever. We have one pair and the only other time he 3bet us was with two pair. Still not ready to fold, though, for this price and in position with AA.

Oh, Lord !... what is that? $250 effective and you 2! for just $13 with AA

He may have a draw+pair like KT or 67 or just a simple TP and trying to protect against a FD. I would call and look for flush or double gutter cards if they come to avoid disaster.

Anyway, your preflop raise was way way too small. When you 2! pre to 5% of effective all the monkeys will come in with they suited bananas and pocket-pairs trying to outdraw you for that correct price. Don't do that anymore. Don't give them odds to outflop you.

I'm not sure if this result is expected at this table or not to this sizing, but we basically ended up in the best possible result (HU, in position, with initiative, against perhaps the lone guy at the table where we're ok stacking off with to a fairly big SPR). Not sure this result should always be expected though, no?

ETA: And, like always, one of my pet peeves is this "missing out on value" thing. Sure, if we size it bigger and everyone folds, yes, in this particular case we missed out on some value. But we have to counteract that against the times our smaller raise gets called in multiple spots and we loose a bunch postflop in difficult spots (and even that has to be counteracted with the times we win a bunch, and then that again counteracted with the times we fold the best hand postflop in a big pot, and so on). This "value" thing isn't straightforward, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG

What if this is the max you can bet in this game and still get a caller? Seriously? Pre-flop is small for my games, but I've sat in games where $13 gets folds from all but the best of hands. $13 might be a mistake at this table, but it might be the perfect pre-flop raise. Don't judge OP based on your games. Ask OP if this is normal, first.

Thanks to being OOP and not knowing how many people are interested in their hand, I'd guess this is even a very difficult question. Like most games I've ever played in, the difference between a 5way raised pot vs taking it down preflop is often a lone early caller ("pot odds!" / "all aboard!").

GcluelessNLnoobG

LOL. You never know that. So you are in a game with normal high pre-flop raises of $21. You bet $21 here and the next player calls, they are still all calling. It's table norm that matters here. Don't raise bigger than normal UTG+2 w/ AA because you are scared you might get multiple callers.

Well, I just think that your biggest motive is always avoiding risks and making the hand easier to play.
nothing is easier to openshove it pre, I think it´s also most likely +ev.

Well, that's my point; we won't know, and the results sometimes won't even be affected all that much by the size of the raise. If 4 other people at the table happen to have a pocket pair, guess what, pretty much any table you sit at will be going 5ways to the flop once the first pocket pair calls, even if the opening raise is like a lol $35.

Also, table "norms" are typically all over the place. With just a $250 stack, I doubt I've sat at too many 1/3 NL tables where everyone's jaw would hit the ground if I opened to $25 just cuz the table norm is $13 to $18. So why not do that? If someone has a pocket pair or a big A, or even a pretty hand like QJs, it's highly unlikely they are going to fold.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Because I like playing poker and winning the blinds w/ AA is not ideal. Neither is getting stacked, but I'd rather have five callers than have everyone fold.

Also, as long as you are raising your entire range to $25, it's fine, but then that's your table norm.... Get it?

I've come to the conclusion that the simplest and easiest-to-play line is most likely the most +EV one, especially if you've properly assessed your edge on your opponents (which most of us do not, imo).

Admittedly, there will be extreme counterexamples to this (such as open shoving AA). My guess is if you limp/shoved it every time it would probably be more optimal than most peoples lines.

Gbuteveryoneiswelcometothelinetheytake,especiallys inceeveryoneisclearly3xbetterthantheiropponentsG

I'm not sure what you mean by "like playing poker". Most people who play poker like playing poker and they're losers. The bottom line of a poker strategy is measured in $$$, not enjoyment.

I'm outvoted by this on the forum, but I actually think stealing the blinds (while admittedly not ideal) is better than having 5 callers, especially if one way will only fold everyone some of the time while doing things another way will have 5 callers most of the time. But that's me; if you're fine with a 6way flop, then obviously take that line. I've never said not to *if* you're comfortable with that result, although given most of the HHs threads I've read along this line, hardly any OPs are (responding posters might be in a different boat).

Seems I'm being asked the same question in multiple places today, but my EP playing range is pretty tight and snug to begin with and getting snuggier. I'm not as concerned about balance since my range here is so small to begin with anyways (i.e. I think it's a mistake to be raising QJs in EP to begin with, and probably even a mistake to play them here at all, at least in the games I play in).

Gjustoneman'sopinionG

Just to jump in on the preflop discussion. I've played a decent amount at the same place GG does, if I'm assuming the right casino, and he's not lying when he says raises to 20-25 get called. I think it's a pretty unusual thing myself, even other casinos in the area doesn't get the same preflop action, but it does happen at that casino. I myself have adjusted there and open for no less than 15 with no limpers if I'm 100bb, the deeper the bigger and I add around 4 per limper, more if I'm OOP. On the flip side I know the younger and smarter players like myself notice when players are making larger raises like this preflop and speaking for myself I adjust my range accordingly, usually meaning folding. The standard raise is still usually around 15 so when players open to 20+, especially with no limpers or they've been tight, people take notice. But, as I said, there are a lot of gamblers there, and they don't like to fold preflop. I know the first time I was there a guy with 44 opened to 11, 1 caller, and I raised to 55 and he called with a $240ish stack to flop a set.

The casino I'm playing at now is almost the exact opposite. Player pool is lots of old white men or good ol boys who are equally bad. My open to 13 was large compared to the 8-13 raises from the rest of the table. The most it went up to was players making it 15 with limpers or a random older tight man (who I can see as being a GG figure) opening to 20-25 and getting all folds. I guess the point I'm trying to make is you need to know the tendencies of your player base. GG could be giving you great advice by suggesting a large raise preflop or he could be dooming you to see everyone folding every time. Depends on table dynamics and a ton of other things you need to figure out on your own.

Thank you. You made my point for me. At this table, $13 was the correct bet pre.

At my game a $13 raise would be called by everyone, even our "nits." It's actually hard to see a flop for less than $25 to $45. Last weekend someone called a $125 3bet w/ 34 and a $175 4bet w/ 88. The table dynamics make a huge difference in pre-flop raise size, which was my point

Yup, agreed, it depends a lot on your table dynamics. My views are clearly biased due to the table I play at.

However, I see an awful lot of I-raz-we-go-5ways-to-the-flop threads in this forum, so I know it's not just my room that plays like this at this level.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Its much better to takea flop 5ways with AA at llsnl than to just steal the blinds lol.

Taking a flop 5 ways with AA almsot always ensures that somebody has top pair and is gunna stack off to you.


GG what do you do when you are at a very deepstacked 1-3 game? Say average stacks are $1000.

Do you just open AA for $100 to try and deny set mining odds and steal the blinds? Or do you just avoid playing when you are super deep and rack up?