Very loose, fishy 2 preflop callers (~$220 each), Hero ($300) raises to $20 with 88 in LP, both call with 1 caller in blinds

Flop ($80): T52ccd
Checks to Hero ??

With just one over and a dryish board IP, I feel like it's 50-50 whether to bet or not on this board? Anyway, I decide to bet 1/2 PSB for value/info... only the fish to my right who just reloaded to $200 after busting last hand calls..

Turn ($160): Ks
Check (he always checks to the aggressor), Hero ??

V only has around $140 left, is it best to just shove this overcard here and get worse hands than 8x as well as Tx to fold? Hero decides to check...

River ($160): 4d
V snap-shoves, Hero mucks

I've hardly seen V bluffing like that, so this feels like some rivered 2p/straight and I tank-muck my 88

Overall, I feel like I played the hand okay, but I'm wondering if the flop cbet (even with a tight image) is a leak.. Also, is it too thin to raise 88 in LP at such a loose, shallowish table where you know you're getting atleast 2-3 callers?

seems fine

Looks fine. With 2 opponents betting your pair about half the time looks right. The thing to remember is that when you c-bet half the pot it only has to work 1 time in 3 to break even. They probably both fold a little less then half the time and you will make a small profit in the long run.

Turn is the decision point, either you make a shove that is mostly bluff or you check and hope to check behind on the river. I prefer checking but if you think you can get Tx and worse to fold then shoving is OK.

Preflop is a hardest question. If a raise is going to reliably get 2-3 calls after 2 limps then limping is better. There are just not that many good boards without the set. If you can raise and average closer to 1 caller then raising is better.

QuadJ, it's 4-handed to the flop.

Seems fine.

One thing I like to do and this purely from my own play.

I like to bet more then 1/2 when the flop is wet Reasoning is because a lot of people understand chets and when to protect hands and such.

Just feel that betting 1/2 pot here really makes your hand look like "AK" which can lead to further troubles. I usually like to bet slightly higher like for 80 I'll go50 instead.

This isn't some lock down ****. Just giving another view.

Pre and flop looks good.

Turn, I prefer a check as I think its too thin to shove for "value"

River, based on live tells I'd probably station it off based on my experience with these types of players. Getting 2:1 with the myriad if flush draws and Ax gutshots we're getting a decent price I think in a vacuum.


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Bet flop. You're multiway and have a good chance of having the best hand and can def get called by worse/draws. $40-45 seems good.

Turn I check back. I don't think you get worse to call or better to fold by shoving.

River is a fold. He could have KT, 54, A3, sets, and calling stations don't usually bluff especially otr.

IME though the snap shove a lot of times is bluffy (trying to look strong) so I would pay attention to this villain if it happens again (or if he takes longer and shoves) and he has to showdown.

In a later hand vs me, he l/c KJs pre UTG vs my UTG1 $25 raise, and c/rai $150 OTF vs my $50 cbet into $75 3-way on Jxxr, and lost to my QQ.

Based on this, can we deduce that he didn't have TP on the flop in the OP?

Also, do you guys like a lol $5 bet OTT IP vs droolers in this scenario, to avoid giving them a green flag to bluff us OTR? I feel like, even if we put a small bet OTT (which they may see as trappy), they're slightly less likely to shove river like this as a bluff.

Also, they're never playing back at us if we bet $5 OTT so we don't have to be bothered about being c/r bluffed.

Calling is spew. Hand looks fine as played.

He has a bunch of 2P or sets and I wouldn't be surprised if he were disappointed that you didn't fire turn and is now trying to make up lost ground. Good fold.

He even told the dealer "here's another $200 coming to reload" when I asked him "show if I fold?".

Anything to deduce from that?

Lol, wrote up a big thing and somehow I accidentally deleted it.

Anyhoo, bottom line for me is that preflop set us up for some difficult decisions postflop when it was most likely that's exactly what we'd get into (i.e. flop 2nd/3rd pair multiway and have no idea if the flop caller was crushing us or drawing or what and now we're on the turn with a mediocre hand with just a PSB left). I try to avoid these situations. So I woulda overlimped preflop. If table was tighter with fit/fold players, then I'm more for raising.

GcluelessNLnoobG

He's begging for a call. I'd consider folding a K after that little bit of hollywooding. Bottom line is this spot is marginal and without a great read that he's FOS I'm folding and feeling content

I think 88 is too marginal of a hand to play this way. I think it has way more value to raise in an un-openned pot. If you are going to raise regardless, then you have to play it like it's way better than it is and hope you pick up a set before getting to the river.

With this board, I probably would have checked the flop and bet half-pot on the turn, then folded to anybody displaying strength if I get re-raised. You'd play most of your good Kings the same way, so why not pretend like you have a great King?

Didn't even notice, I was thinking about the pot size/bet size math. Extra villain makes me less interested in c-betting. The chance that somebody hit the flop or has a pair they won't give up is too high and it's break even at best.

Two examples isn't a big enough sample size but it certainly points in that direction.

As played (raising preflop), I'm actually ok with betting the flop when checked to on this board cuz there is a pretty good chance we're best in a big pot and letting the world draw for free against our vulnerable hand sucks, imo. But I'd bet way smaller, say $25-$30. Sure, *if* someone has a draw we're giving them good odds, but I'm trying to balance that with the times we're crushed already and really don't want to be building a big pot.

Still, admittedly things will get tricky on the turn if called. If we're called, are we up against a draw and should bet again, possibly even to get a better hand to fold? Or are we simply shoveling in bad money after bad? I'm basically just hoping everyone folds to my cheapish flop bet.

GcluelessNLnoobG

^pretty much all of this, I think 25 is to little a bet and would say 30-35 would be a better sizing, but for the same reasons as above